Constitution

Nothing is set in stone at all, as per the discussion they were invited to air their views nothing more

just think there is a ridiculous amount of over reaction on here. the league should be trusted to get it right, and in 99% of cases, they do. they are not daft but also must not shy away from making the tough decisions (again, something they don't do)

If all 'new' teams started at the bottom to work there way up, then the bottom division would be 20+ teams with hardly any in the top divisions.

At the end of the day, the best 12 should be in the prem. The Committee are the ones to make the judgement and the players who leave their club are the ones who make a mess of the season for everyone else.

The FA does not help by limiting the fines on clubs which 'fold' after the deadline.

Agree Mark, I don't believe the fear that exists of playing in a higher division is actually realised by most clubs at all. There will always be fair weather players and pot hunters that want to turn up and have it easy, but 95% of the teams just want to play competitive football. The committee want exactly the same....

why dont team just concentrate on themselves rather than worry about what div other teams are going in

Best thing I've read today!!

Thicko question, but why don't you have a league, or two, depending on how many new teams you have registered, draw the teams out of a hat and have a new team league? If one/two leagues consists of over 12 teams couldn't they be excluded from certain cup competitions so have more league games to play.

After a season in this league, wouldn't the league be able to gage, the top teams, the poorer teams and the teams that have a loyal player base and be able to place them in the appropriate divisions at the end of the season?

Then repeat process the following summer....

I think the problem with that would be how to gauge them? If a team ran away with Div 7 what division would you put them in? Far better to place teams based on their apparent ability so that they are mostly playing against teams similar in standard to them.

Okay I see, fair comment.....

Should be a specific date for clubs to submit a squad list say mid July, Leics FA have a player database with former clubs then you know what level the club should really be at. Time consuming if it's for a lot of clubs i know. Also isn't the first constituion a provisional one so it's up for discussion between club and league committee?

yes. all clubs must also submit a minimum of 11 players by 31 July

So as I expected, Willowbrook are no more another void to fill. Its never ending!

phil_brown wrote:

Should be a specific date for clubs to submit a squad list say mid July, Leics FA have a player database with former clubs then you know what level the club should really be at....

Well said that man! Top notch comment and defo the way forward for all leagues.

Central registration is a database that should be developed/utilised more and is not that difficult for player/club match queries to be ran via mysql etc.

On a per player basis not much use BUT once you run if for the entire team it can flag anything for attention.

 

phil_brown wrote:

Should be a specific date for clubs to submit a squad list say mid July, Leics FA have a player database with former clubs then you know what level the club should really be at. Time consuming if it's for a lot of clubs i know. Also isn't the first constituion a provisional one so it's up for discussion between club and league committee?

leics FA does not have that, they have players attached clubs but only if they have picked up a caution/red card whilst playing for that club or was involved in a hearing

clarkeh wrote:

phil_brown wrote:

Should be a specific date for clubs to submit a squad list say mid July, Leics FA have a player database with former clubs then you know what level the club should really be at. Time consuming if it's for a lot of clubs i know. Also isn't the first constituion a provisional one so it's up for discussion between club and league committee?

leics FA does not have that, they have players attached clubs but only if they have picked up a caution/red card whilst playing for that club or was involved in a hearing

Is it not hard to create a database and make changes to it? That way you wouldn't have the same arguement every summer.

I'll start by saying it's not an easy job for the league and you can't please everyone.

Although this is the year to get it right and then set up a system for years to come that is clear to everyone in the league and new teams joining as I've never played in a league that doesn't have actual promotion and relegation.

Having 12 teams in the Prem and Div 1 is a must and if this means for the next few years there are only a few teams challenging for the title then so be it.

But from this season moving forwards there should be a system which sees new teams enter one of the bottom three divisions and then work their way up through promotions.

You'll all say but what if there is a team that is coming from another league from the Prem there. Well in this case there can be a vote at the AGM to either allow them to enter a higher league or not join.

Then teams that drop out from the leagues above are filled by an extra promotion from the league below. In my opinion double promotions shouldn't happen as a team is growing and changing each year and two league jumps could see a team fold which seems to be the biggest problem in this league.

As for teams dropping out and reforming this has to be left to the league to spot and stop if it is a way of playing in a lower league, but some will always slip through the net.

One way to stop teams from folding and rejoining would be to charge a 'new team fee' of say £100 or £200 which sits in an escrow account and is given back to the club once they have completed three full seasons. This also stops teams that aren't committed to the league and teams that aren't financially set up to run a team.

It's great we have 7/8 leagues but at the same time if this system saw us have 5/6 leagues in a few years time that were stronger and full of teams that are committed it'd be better for everyone.

TheStarInnFC wrote:

I'll start by saying it's not an easy job for the league and you can't please everyone.

Although this is the year to get it right and then set up a system for years to come that is clear to everyone in the league and new teams joining as I've never played in a league that doesn't have actual promotion and relegation.

Having 12 teams in the Prem and Div 1 is a must and if this means for the next few years there are only a few teams challenging for the title then so be it.

But from this season moving forwards there should be a system which sees new teams enter one of the bottom three divisions and then work their way up through promotions.

You'll all say but what if there is a team that is coming from another league from the Prem there. Well in this case there can be a vote at the AGM to either allow them to enter a higher league or not join.

Then teams that drop out from the leagues above are filled by an extra promotion from the league below. In my opinion double promotions shouldn't happen as a team is growing and changing each year and two league jumps could see a team fold which seems to be the biggest problem in this league.

As for teams dropping out and reforming this has to be left to the league to spot and stop if it is a way of playing in a lower league, but some will always slip through the net.

One way to stop teams from folding and rejoining would be to charge a 'new team fee' of say £100 or £200 which sits in an escrow account and is given back to the club once they have completed three full seasons. This also stops teams that aren't committed to the league and teams that aren't financially set up to run a team.

It's great we have 7/8 leagues but at the same time if this system saw us have 5/6 leagues in a few years time that were stronger and full of teams that are committed it'd be better for everyone.

In an ideal world, the 2 up, 2 down system would be perfect. However we'd end up with half a dozen teams spread across the top two divisions after a few of seasons.

Double promotions help as there really isn't too much of a difference between devisions in the bottom half of the constitution. If a team walks division 7 they will more than likely do the same in 6 and arguably 5 would be too low also. Allowing them to steamroller through the divisions would be unfair on all concerned. This applies for only allowing teams to enter at the bottom as well.

Such big shifts in the costitution, like we saw last year, are not ideal but it is a forced situation.

I like the "new team fee" idea. I would prefer a reduction in fee for the longer standing clubs though.

[quote="Sparta3"]

TheStarInnFC wrote:

In an ideal world, the 2 up, 2 down system would be perfect. However we'd end up with half a dozen teams spread across the top two divisions after a few of seasons.

Double promotions help as there really isn't too much of a difference between devisions in the bottom half of the constitution. If a team walks division 7 they will more than likely do the same in 6 and arguably 5 would be too low also.  Allowing them to steamroller through the divisions would be unfair on all concerned. This applies for only allowing teams to enter at the bottom as well.

Such big shifts in the costitution, like we saw last year, are not ideal but it is a forced situation.

I like the "new team fee" idea. I would prefer a reduction in fee for the longer standing clubs though.

It has to be more flexible than 2 up 2 down but only in the case that if 4 teams drop out of the Prem then 4 get promoted from the league below and so on, which stops double promotions because the teams in the leagues below as you say are never that far off the teams in the bottom half of the division above.

As for new teams I think putting them in one of the bottom three leagues unless specifically asked to go higher and then accepted at the AGM works because no self respecting side wants to start in League 7 knowing it's going to take them 7 years to be promoted to the Prem. At the minute they can say they are of poor standard enter league 6/7, win everything and then be jumped up a few divisions. The system can be played as it stands I think.

When we joined last year we wanted to be in a league that would challenge us (maybe Div 3 was too much of a challenge for year 1). We could have gone into Div 5, 6 or 7 because as a new team the league had to take us on our word as no players had played in the league before. We could have gone into Div 7, won and then jumped up a few leagues. But if a team knew it would take them 3/4 years to get to the right division through one division promotions I don't think anyone would want to do that and start so low because winning before you've turned up is as bad as losing every week.

It's the top two divisions that need the stability because when they are weak it changes all the leagues below too much however if you knew 4 teams had dropped out of the Prem all teams who finished in the top 4 of their leagues are expecting to be promoted and it would take away this uncertainty of clubs not knowing what league they are in etc.

Loyalty to the league should be rewarded as you say but the league does need money. But maybe a 5% reduction in fees after 3 years, 10% after 5 years and 20% after 10 years+ would still see enough money in the leagues accounts to break even.

some good points, but I doubt very much a team finishing 4th in div 1 would expect or indeed want to go into the prem if 4 teams dropped out. also, if this 4th team finished, say, 20+ points behind the league winners, would they still expect to go into the prem? and would if be fair to put them there?

Polska legend II wrote:

some good points, but I doubt very much a team finishing 4th in div 1 would expect or indeed want to go into the prem if 4 teams dropped out. also, if this 4th team finished, say, 20+ points behind the league winners, would they still expect to go into the prem? and would if be fair to put them there?

I'm sure they wouldn't be happy but at least it's a clear rule - I think the problem is we are trying to make everything fair and that's impossible.

As it stands it's guess work on where teams should and shouldn't be and the promotion depending on teams needed for the league above and relegation system would make it clear and stop any complaints because it is what it is.

Then with a 'new team fee' a team wouldn't just refuse to play because of their new league and reform as it'd cost them £100/200.

There are always going to be teams that don't win many or no games in a league and there will be one or two teams that run away with it but at least this way everyone will know what league they are planning for the season after way in advance.

I think there can't be a single, blanket rule with relegation and promotions, partly because of the amount of drop outs but also every season a different problem pops up and this is just particularly urgent because of the farce that was the prem this year. People saying that teams won't like 2 or 3 division promotions to the prem, simply put, if you think they can compete in the prem (which in my opinion means avoid the bottom 2) then ask them, give them the option and see if they would want to compete, same goes for new teams with established backgrounds or well known players. More would say yes than expected in my opinion and the problem goes for another 12 months, as long as teams know that if they say no theres no problem then its all good.

Has anyone got a list of every team that has dropped out either during the season of since the end of last season from each division?

I could have a bash at this at some point Star its a long list

the problem with two up two down is well documented above, something does need to change tho

Polska legend II wrote:

some good points, but I doubt very much a team finishing 4th in div 1 would expect or indeed want to go into the prem if 4 teams dropped out. also, if this 4th team finished, say, 20+ points behind the league winners, would they still expect to go into the prem? and would if be fair to put them there?

We pretty much finished 4th and are happy to go in the Prem!

The league are doing the right thing, taking their time to make sure they get things right(ish).

So how long till we actually no then chaps?

Jimmyb is very right here, in years gone by people would have been screaming for the constitution by now, there does seem to be an acceptance by clubs that this year needs some real consideration and are allowing the league that time to "get it right".
A lot of ideas have been put forward some perhaps with more merit than others. My only concern is that obviously there are small potential issues with each of these which I could conceivably see the league focusing on but I would urge them that NOT doing anything to change would be more damaging. The last couple of years we have seen it getting "rather bitty" with the 3/4 years before that rather smooth in relative terms. It IS time to revamp/recalculate and make sure that the blueprint works for what the league has now, rather than what the league had when the blueprint was designed

very true. the top 2 divisions have been too sparse - certainly last season. we need to fill them now because otherwise we will have the same problems year after year - too many gaps to fill therefore too many teams getting moved about. saying that, I do think we should compress the divisions - we only need 7 divisions not 8 in my opinion

My gut feel was to agree Mark, however with what is looking like 95 teams not sure we can fit them into 7 without breaking James and pitch share arrangements asit would mean divisions of 14

TheStarInnFC wrote:

Has anyone got a list of every team that has dropped out either during the season of since the end of last season from each division?

Advance Couriers
Enderby Town
Fairfield Fanatics
MDH Knights
Shoemakers
Glenfield Town, Sunday
Leicester Polska
NRI
Oakfield Old Boys
Premier Sports Travel
Willowbook
LCAC
Lutterworth Town Sunday
NPE
St Marks
Superfly
Megavux
Trinty Foxes
North Kilworth Reserves
Chartwell Arms
Fleckney Ath Sunday
Leicester Forest Foxes

Thats 22 teams lost in 12 months between AGM 2013 and now, make from that what you will

Pete Mourinho wrote:

TheStarInnFC wrote:

Has anyone got a list of every team that has dropped out either during the season of since the end of last season from each division?

Advance Couriers
Enderby Town
Fairfield Fanatics
MDH Knights
Shoemakers
Glenfield Town, Sunday
Leicester Polska
NRI
Oakfield Old Boys
Premier Sports Travel
Willowbook
LCAC
Lutterworth Town Sunday
NPE
St Marks
Superfly
Megavux
Trinty Foxes
North Kilworth Reserves
Chartwell Arms
Fleckney Ath Sunday
Leicester Forest Foxes

Thats 22 teams lost in 12 months between AGM 2013 and now, make from that what you will

Thanks Pete.

In the simple system of move those up from the divisions below to fill in gaps from the league above (bar Monsell as they said they'd play in the Prem) here is a controversial look at how the leagues could look. I'm sure I've made mistakes as typed it quickly!

Taking into account anyone who finished bottom of their league going down - maybe not in league number but it's more about who the teams are around you.

From this list below if new teams want to join certain leagues then a team is bumped down to the league below:

Prem:
FC Azzurri
GT
Star and Garter
Leicester Foxes Old Boys
Fosse City
Magna Town
Frolesworth United
Oadby Owls Mens
Webby Wanderers
Seaton
Wigston United
Monsell WMC

Div 1
Desford Athletic
CSKA Carnabys
Niffy Rangers
Phoenix United
AC Wigston
East Goscote
LDA Spartans
CPR
Horse
AFC Bees Knees
AFC Royal Oak
Enness United

Div 2
The Star Inn
Thurmaston WMP
Huncote Sunday
Leicester Bharat Talbot
FC Tumar
Aylestone Athletic
Glenfield United
FC Pochin
Wigston Rangers
Humberstone 2000
Countersthorpe Athletic
QPR

Div 3
Harborough Hotshots
United Revolution
Niffy Rangers Reserves
Tinderbox
Royalist
LKS
CFA
Sporting Birstall
Desford Rangers
Duka St Andrews
Pukka Pies

Div 4
Fairfield Athletic
Global Athletic
Inter Mivan
White Horse Wanderers
Mark J Rees
Wigston Plough Rovers
Monsell Reserves
Vale
Wigston Fields
Friar Lane

Div 5

Birstall Rangers
Medz
Suecastle
The Plough Wigston
Blaby United
FC City of Leicester
Harrow Emerald
Groby Town
Little Bowden
CSKA Carnabys Reserves


I think those leagues would all be competitive. I don't know new teams but if this was the starting block before new teams came onboard I think it'd be clearer.

Then with the top 4 divisions being strong after sorting it out this year a promotion and relegation system can be brought into place.

Id probably swap vale and monsell reserves for trinderbox and royalist and put Fairfield in 5

Think Leicester Foxes have folded. Looks fine to me but I reckon there'd be a few pissed off teams if that was the premiership!

Thurmaston wmp ressis r missing

Sparta Moshdock are missing

Monsell WMC would happily play in any division. But why are we the only team that doesnt move up accordingly.
Little bit harsh. Ive said we'd play in the prem but in all honesty, we'd definitely finish bottom in that prem. Barcabullona, moshdock, plus atleast 5 of that div 1 should be higher than Monsell

We won division 5 by 1 point in 2013, we won div 3 after phoenix messed up and lost a few players, they were clear favourites with 5 games left. We dont have a single player thats played higher than division 3 and we havent made any great new signings. We wouldn't fold if we were placed in prem but in all honesty, division 1 is more acceptable

You beat us in the Billy Walton the season before last. Premier League for you mate.

Told you I'd make mistakes

You are right it would be unfair you being in the Prem but thought I'd read you wanted to play there.

Add Sparta Moshdock to the Prem, drop Monsell down to Div 1, add Thurmaston WMP to Div 1 having been relegated last season and then drop the bottom two out of div 1, 2 and 3 and you've got what the league would look like in that system.

Then you add new teams into the league where they should play and drop teams down divisions.

What I suggested will be nothing like the league looks like come the start of the season as I don't know the new teams coming in.

My point was just that rather than trying to place every team again like is currently happening if there was more of a system that was understood by all teams where the bottom team always gets relegated and teams from the league below fill positions needed in the league above it stops everyone guessing.

Only changes then are new teams being placed in leagues which then shuffles teams down a league.

Hopefully though teams stop dropping out of the top leagues as this is what is making it so difficult and new teams don't come into the league and disappear quickly.

The league should work out every remaining teams average number of points per game last season and divide that by a number related to the league they're playing in. (Premier league would be 1, down to division 7 which would be . The figure you're left with would be that teams ranking score.

Examples..

Star & Garter (prem winners) 26 / 12 = 2.17 / 1 = 2.17

CSKA Reserves (bottom of 7) 9 / 24 = 0.38 / 8 = 0.05

Fill in the gaps, order the teams by this ranking score and put them in the relevant division, top 12 in the Prem and so on. Only exceptions are the new teams who just slot in where the league think is right.

You're welcome.

Jimmyb wrote:

You beat us in the Billy Walton the season before last. Premier League for you mate.

We played 541 sat back and defended like animals. You were all over us in that game, we just got 2 lucky break away goals. Any team is capable of a one off win. In the next round we got destroyed by prem sports who finished 7th???