Kajima FC

Hellboy wrote:

the goalie wrote:

Widds wrote:

the goalie wrote:

Widds wrote:

So you think its ok that only the rich compete in Olympic sports?

hell yeah widds .. let us poor folk kick the pig bladder around on sundays

But not in competitive leagues though...!!! Getting too expensive!!

yeah has too be a fifa approved offical size and weight pig bladder lol

If you do happen to play NRI in one of the cups, you could always steal one of theirs maybe, when no ones looking of course, some players do things like that, dont you know?

This is very true....hopefully we will get our ball back this season...

CalamityScouse wrote:

Aussie Owl wrote:

Polska legend II wrote:

Are the vultures circling for your player yet Mike?

It will cost them £25 per player, payable to me at my address.

Having just gone through folding before the new season with Gutho I do have some big issues with the way fines are dished out to folding clubs.

Basically, we got of scot free as no players had been signed before the deadline, so there were no players to fine. Had we signed players on, based on other peoples word. My understanding is those honest players who signed a form in good faith would have been fined to the high heavens.

The same in this instance it seems Mike (and the genuine other members of his team) are now going to have to fork out an additional £25 on top of what they have already lost in getting ready for the new season should they wish to play football again, whilst the lads who made promises etc can walk away freely presuming they hadn't signed on the dotted line.

The league don't give any grace to those member of clubs who plough there own money and effort in week after week. So it begs the question why would they bother to do it? I spoke with Mike before the season start, and even flogged him all my old Gutho kit / balls etc I had, and I know he went to great lengths personally to try everything he could to keep the club going. So im saddened for him that it hasnt succeeded.

I had my own reasons for keeping Gutho going, I dread to think how much it actual cost me in the end. That was with a decent set of lads who almost always paid. But as Widds has pointed out, you are almost always trying to recover loses. Throw in an odd semi / cup final (not that this should be a complaint) and it adds on another £100 per season who have to find.

I know Hellboy's point is sort of valid that if lads want to play, they should stump up, but if your faced with the choice of making 9 lads who have played before the game start with 9 or start with 11 and let 2 who haven't paid play, what do you think most lads would pick?

I suggest most would want 11 to play, to make the game the enjoyable experience it should be.

You seem to overlook your email of 16 January 2012 tendering the resignation of Guthlaxton OB at the end of the season. That email was the correct procedure within League Rules to avoid a possible fine upon withdrawal. In due course you confirmed that resignation. So, if as you claim you got off 'scot free' that was simply down to your own knowledge of League Rules and their application.

I accept Finance is an issue for many clubs. However all clubs have members and the costs of participating should be borne by the members equally or in the case of onfield discipline by the defaulting player, rather than by one or a small number of individuals

Agree with the above Gordon, although when the defaulting player refuses to pay, the clubs suffer in a massive way. Although this is obviously a County FA issue. I do believe that a possible solution would be as follows:

Club pays the fine, the money stays with County FA for a year, in the mean time, the club tries to get the money off the individual, however, if they are not able to get the money, perhaps County FA could give half the money back to the club after the year is up.

The balance of £50 is against the player who remains suspended until they have paid.

This means that clubs still hold responsibility for their players, CFA get their money, the player doesnt get off scot free.

Not sure i can see any problems with the above other than CFA may not get as much money in as previously, but it would help grass roots football which is what we are all here for...

I think the whole issue of good grace and 'innocent' players suffering is unavoidable, because basically you have to have rules in place otherwise there is a free for all. And also if you start relaxing those rules or making a precedent for others, the rule(s) may as well not be there. If a club folds for whatever reason there will always be innocent players whose only 'crime' was signing on for a particular team.

The rules are set by the FA, not the County FA

Aussie Owl wrote:

The rules are set by the |FA, not the County FA

But shouldn't county take feedback to the FA? I still think my point re fines has some legitimacy, there are ways in which CFA or FA could assist with the pariahs of amateur football - sunday players

received from County FA after trying to obtain a refund on our affiliation/cup fees

Hi Mike,

Unfortunately we cannot give refunds after the 1st August.

If Kajima FC have not started their league/league cup programme then the league cannot impose a fine.

Regards,

Matt

Matt Edkins | Head of Football Services
Leicestershire & Rutland County Football Association
Holmes Park, Dog & Gun Lane, Whetstone, Leicester, LE8 6FA
T 0116 284 4957 | M +44 (0) 7535 711358 | F 0116 286 4858
matt.edkins@LeicestershireFA.com
www.LeicestershireFA.com

Widds wrote:

Aussie Owl wrote:

The rules are set by the |FA, not the County FA

But shouldn't county take feedback to the FA? I still think my point re fines has some legitimacy, there are ways in which CFA or FA could assist with the pariahs of amateur football - Sunday players

I have considerable respect for our delegate to FA and I know he fights our corner whenever he can, but usually with little effect. I liaise with him on a regular basis.

In my opinion, the FA are more concerned about the professional game, including the England team, as well as youth football and the so-called minority sections of the game. As a result, adult football at grass roots level gets little attention and has been in serious decline over a number years.

Just for the record:

Alliance League rule 14. (B)
A Club shall not be allowed to withdraw any or all of its teams from the competition after the AGM for the following season

rule (iii)
Any club infringing this Rule and disbanding before the fixtures have commenced cannot be fined but will be liable for their financial commitments prior to disbanding

being 100.00 GBP ?????

It does appear I got it wrong, we did infect resign in January as per league rules to avoid a fine, however I thought that we made a retraction and made our intention to continue for the upcoming season.

To follow up on other comments, it is true the league needs to fine somebody as as a dererent but also to recover some of it's own cost. I just have problems with the way in which it is dished out. It often hits those who have already taken hits the hardest.

The league try's to help teams who show signs of struggling, and yet if at the first sign of struggling they fold it's often cheaper. Which is a double edged sword.

Say a team agrees to continue for another 2/3 games despite struggling for players, not only will they have to find the money for those 3 games (pitch & ref) as well as quite possibly fines for incomplete team / no assistant ref. Plus maybe allowing 1 or 2 lads playing for free.

I don't honestly have a solution, the idea of don't pay don't play is brilliant in theory but completely impractical and enforceable.

I do think that certain things could change to help clubs, split costs of refs on cup games for example, but until a solution is proposed the current system is as good as it can be.

Fair point Mark - but does commitment go even further? Every club presumably goes into a season (or should do) in the knowledge that they will have to find roughly £1200 to compete? Yes its a lot of money but should anyone contemplate setting up a club if they cant find that money? (no suggesting this was what happened with Kajima just making a point)

We were given a lot of false promises

I agree a club should have the knowledge of how much it's going to cost.

But as Kajima proved, a club can have all the intentions of getting the money and have the players but getting the cash of I different story.

If you do a basic cost of a club for a season (without any balls, kit etc);

Affifilation = £42
County Cup Entry = £16
League Subscription = £100 (With signing on book)

Home League Pitch = £55 x 10 = £550
Home League Ref = £30 x 10 = £300

Kit Washing League = £10 x 22 = £200 (20 League Games, 1 Alliance Cup, 1 County Cup)

That's a total cost of £1,248, that's roughly £56 a game.

Split across 11 players each 90 mins its £5 each. (a sub off and on would only share the £5).

Say you have 18 players signed on, each somewhere along the line has to contribute £70. Add on signing on, and kit etc you could realistically be looking for £100 per player.

The point about cups is, if you are not on a season subscription fee for a pitch, then the unforeseen cost can cripple you.

When we got to the final of Fosters, and quarters of County in same season we played an extra 5 games at home, which cost £95 each time. £85 of which was ref and pitch. At £5 subs, we took a £40 hit each time (£55 recovered in subs), with no away game guaranteed to cover the remaining costs. So that £200 had to found somewhere. That doesn't include the semi with neutral cost of pitch / ref / linesman (although we charged extra for semi).



I don't wish to add in more complications, but last season we also played to clubs at home, and they folded before the away fixture, so this then again left us £80 out of pocket.

I do think the subject of shared costs should be discussed. So that the away team always has to pay something, say £40 (£15 ref, £25 pitch) to stop things like this happening and help better planning.

CalamityScouse wrote:

Say you have 18 players signed on, each somewhere along the line has to contribute £70. Add on signing on, and kit etc you could realistically be looking for £100 per player.

£100 per player for a season is peanuts, i'm sure some of these players blow £50 in one night on booze and clubbing, when you think how much football you get for that £100 its well worth it, if everybody paid that up front for the season, there'd be no problems, as long as they stayed with that team, 2 birds with one stone. Anyone can get their hands on £100, borrow it from a family member and pay them a fiver a week back, if you cant afford it, then you cant play league football, unless you use your intiative, depends how bad you want to play in this league....some of them turn up in designer jeans and trainers, choose one or the other, thats life get used to it.

blah blah blah

Hellboy wrote:

CalamityScouse wrote:

Say you have 18 players signed on, each somewhere along the line has to contribute £70. Add on signing on, and kit etc you could realistically be looking for £100 per player.

£100 per player for a season is peanuts, i'm sure some of these players blow £50 in one night on booze and clubbing, when you think how much football you get for that £100 its well worth it, if everybody paid that up front for the season, there'd be no problems, as long as they stayed with that team, 2 birds with one stone. Anyone can get their hands on £100, borrow it from a family member and pay them a fiver a week back, if you cant afford it, then you cant play league football, unless you use your intiative, depends how bad you want to play in this league....some of them turn up in designer jeans and trainers, choose one or the other, thats life get used to it.

I'm not saying its a lot, I was merely highlighting the minimum cost of a team. A team could ideally charge a £100 upfront for a season (in fact I know one such team has done as much this season), with a rebate to those who didn't play their fair share. But I just cant see it working across 80 odd teams.

It would solve all the problems and excuses that people make up, and i do like the idea of a rebate system, brilliant idea, i wonder if it could be put into the rules of singing up....


would you like to play for the alliance league?...yes.

well its £100 joining fee, still interested? your choice.

and theres a rebate system if you dont play / get injured/leave the club///////////// you could have a percentage refund, depending on the circumstance.

where do i sign?

blah blah blah...

There are 2 elements that every club needs without fail:

Players and Finance.

Seeing the clubs fold and players hawk themselves around over the years, I honestly can't see a large percentage willing to pay £100 upfront. I agree its a great idea but you see more and more players these days of a certain age that feel they are doing their clubs a favour by getting out of bed. They won't be paying upfront for the 'priviledge'.

I wonder how many clubs were still owed subs at the end of last season? I reckon between 80 clubs it could run into four figures.

Neevsey wrote:

We were given a lot of false promises

Such as?

I feel for anyone who has genuine intentions to pay their way, get involved with a club and then, through no fault of their own, loses out financially due to others.

We are to be in a position where we have players willing to contribute to the club in the form of a signing on fee when they join and on the whole are very prompt paying a monthly training fee and match fees based on how much they play.

I also fully understand some of the somewhat harsher views in this thread too though. Players have choices to make when they consider how bad they want to play football for a well run club. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made and I am sure some of our lads have made such sacrifices.

Our club is fairly strict when it comes to fees and I personally don't care if you are a vital player in the first team or someone who is fighting for a chance in our seconds, for me both players fees are as vital as the others.

Not sure how harsh the leagues rules are as I've never looked too much at how it works but if a club folds, someone has to cover the fine I guess for the administration that has been done on behalf of that club for the new season.

I personally don't feel the rules are particularly harsh - they are out there for everyone to see and there is no grey area. I have always been quite open about some of them - for example I really don't like the rule for teams getting fined for starting with less than 11 - but again everyone knows where they stand.

I think if a club runs into difficulty with money and/or players it is the club that signed those players on in the first place and therefore has to take the responsibility. Which for me means you either bomb them out (or don't sign them in the first place) or look at the validity of running a club if the finances aren't there.

From what I have seen I don't think they are harsh either personally but some appear to think so. The rules are outlined for all so can't see how there can be many complaints.

I think it's been mentioned before but maybe teams should pay a higher subscription (more money ) so that some of it can be used as a deposit for potential fees.

simple way out of things, submit your resignation every xmas then withdraw it when you know you are ok for the next season, quite easy really

Gutted that we folded all down to young 'superstars' thinking they can do as they please

rocket ledge wrote:

simple way out of things, submit your resignation every xmas then withdraw it when you know you are ok for the next season, quite easy really

The Alliance is virtually at full capacity and so you would be taking a risk in that your place may have been filled by the applicants who start being accepted in late January.

Hello all,
now our resignation is done and dusted (after a ruling by the National FA) I thought it might be an idea to let all of you know the implications of resigning. The National FA ruled that as we resigned officially after the start of the season the League were entitled to fine us (250.00 GBP which is the maximum allowed by County FA). I feel it important to advise that we resigned on the 28th August - one day before the season was due to start or we thought. Had this been correct we could not have been fined. However a match was brought forward in the Premiership to Sunday 26th which was to suit the two teams involved. As a result the season was deemed to have officially started 26th August. Is this fair?? me thinks not.
As a result of a match being brought forward to suit the two teams involved (or maybe the League?) all of the Kajima players now owe County FA 25.00 GBP each. The total amount owing was 250.00 plus 100.00 Subs for a league we never entered and 15.00 GBP for missing the AGM due to circumstances we could not control. 15 signed on hence 25.00 each. Beware all of you that get into difficulties as it will count for nothing. I have no grudge with the League Officers they have merely implemented the rules. On a personal Level it grates that we resigned before any games to save disruption but it gave us no favours. The fine is up to to 250.00 and we were hit with the maximum. I feel for two of our players who were committed until the start of the season with work etc and as such never kicked a ball for us yet now owe 25.00 GBP. Not anyone's problem I know but just pointing out what may happen. For your own sake if you are put in this position ensure you resign before the start of the season it will save a lot of money (maybe the League will amend this rule to hit you anyway).

I wish everyone well, including the Officers of the League, Ive paid my fine in order to be able to carry on reffing ( I know farcical as I did all I could to try to save the Lads) and may see some of you guys during the season. All the best. Mike Kneafsey Kajima FC.

sorry owe the Alliance League 25 each.
If they dont pay it goes forward to County when at least 10.00 will be added for admin

Extracts from League Rules

2 (B) The Annual Subscription shall be £100 (to include a book of twenty Player Registration Forms) per Team payable on or before the Annual General meeting in each year.

14 (B) A Club shall not be allowed to withdraw any or all of its teams from the Competition after the Annual General Meeting for the following Season.
(i) Any Club infringing this Rule after the fixtures have commenced shall be liable to a fine not exceeding £250 per team and shall also be liable for its share of any call which may be made under Rule 5(B).

19. Any continuing Member Club failing to be represented at a Special General Meeting without satisfactory reason being given shall be fined £15

exactly as I said implementing the rules, but remember Gordon a fixture was brought forward. I have basically listed what happens in simple English for all to understand the implications

Neevsey wrote:

Hello all,
now our resignation is done and dusted (after a ruling by the National FA) I thought it might be an idea to let all of you know the implications of resigning. The National FA ruled that as we resigned officially after the start of the season the League were entitled to fine us (250.00 GBP which is the maximum allowed by County FA). I feel it important to advise that we resigned on the 28th August - one day before the season was due to start or we thought. Had this been correct we could not have been fined. However a match was brought forward in the Premiership to Sunday 26th which was to suit the two teams involved. As a result the season was deemed to have officially started 26th August. Is this fair?? me thinks not.
As a result of a match being brought forward to suit the two teams involved (or maybe the League?) all of the Kajima players now owe County FA 25.00 GBP each. The total amount owing was 250.00 plus 100.00 Subs for a league we never entered and 15.00 GBP for missing the AGM due to circumstances we could not control. 15 signed on hence 25.00 each. Beware all of you that get into difficulties as it will count for nothing. I have no grudge with the League Officers they have merely implemented the rules. On a personal Level it grates that we resigned before any games to save disruption but it gave us no favours. The fine is up to to 250.00 and we were hit with the maximum. I feel for two of our players who were committed until the start of the season with work etc and as such never kicked a ball for us yet now owe 25.00 GBP. Not anyone's problem I know but just pointing out what may happen. For your own sake if you are put in this position ensure you resign before the start of the season it will save a lot of money (maybe the League will amend this rule to hit you anyway).


I wish everyone well, including the Officers of the League, Ive paid my fine in order to be able to carry on reffing ( I know farcical as I did all I could to try to save the Lads) and may see some of you guys during the season. All the best. Mike Kneafsey Kajima FC.

'
Anyone would know at least a couple of weeks beforehand that they were in trouble, i dont believe it would have come down to the very last day to make a simple decision, you must have known well before that you weren't going to carry on, maybe you should have done things at least a month/2 weeks before, obviously games do get brought forward, so you must have known that the decision to fold your club, could have been done a lot earlier, now you're facing fines, it is only yourself to blame, perhaps next time you'll give yourself more notice. Bad managment, lessons to be learnt.

Neevsey wrote:

exactly as I said implementing the rules, but remember Gordon a fixture was brought forward. I have basically listed what happens in simple English for all to understand the implications

The first fixture has nothing to do with it. Read Gordon's post again.

Please read carefully Hell Boy and Sparta. FA made the ruling after an appeal by the Alliance
League. They objected to comments from the County Fa stating we could not be fined. The National FA ruled in Alliance favour due to the first fixture being played. OK get it??

I dont give a fig what you two think, I could have folded it earlier yes, I told the League we were in trouble, they tried to help. Such was my reluctance to kill something that a lot of good boys wanted I battled on even to the point of being promised money the week before folding. F--k your rules and hard hearted comment we are talking about people here and whilst some players didnt deserve to carry on the majority did including my sons. So do me a favour shut your silly mouths

same here, dont mind good natured banter its the ones who thrive on other peoples misfortunes who get on my nerves

lol

Hahaha no pal i didnt but also dont get involved in slanging matches #jussaying

back on topic...!

I think we all agree that we never like to see clubs fold or not carry on. And clearly when that does happen the subject becomes very emotive.

There are normally 3 reasons why a club folds: no money, no players (or not enough) or no one to run the side. We can only speculate why a particular club folds unless we are involved behind the scenes in running it, but I would be genuinely interested in why in this instance Kajima ended up folding. Mike states that some money was promised to the club that did not materialise so perhaps the reason was down to that alone. In which case it is simply a case of a club (and there will be more, doubtless) not having the funds to compete on a Sunday. And if that means that one person constantly puts his hand in his pocket, there comes a time when all of us would say enough is enough.

On the subject of the rules, teams bringing games froward to the bank holiday benefits them alone and makes no difference to the league whatsoever. I can understand why Kajima would have been unhappy about the final ruling from FA level, but by the same token the Alliance rules have to be applied as stringently as possible otherwise dangerous precedents get set. That said, I can also see why the rules listed may have been open to interpretation. My own thoughts about running a club is that if you resign anytime after January you can always expect a £250 fine minimum, and that funds need to come through months before a season starts if at all possible. I also bomb out any player that consistently fails to pay his way, as they are the root cause of all finance problems. If you charge a player, say, £5 a game and he cant be bothered to pay for 10 games, thats £50 the club is losing out on.