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L.K.F.C
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PostSubject: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 12:18 pm

With rumours of yet another side to fold (which I truly hope turns out not to be the case) I honestly believe it is time to ask the queestion as to whether the Alliance has reached a point of saturation.

I know there are going to be responses that its not only new teams folding etc.. But on this I have 2 thoughts:
1) A number of new sides HAVE folded
2) We seem to continually ignore that many players in these new sides are not new to the alliance but simply moved about from another side, thus putting the previous team under increased pressure! Hellboy has mentioned this numerous times regarding players moving to win things but for me the problem is worse than that if we are losing teams as a result.

My belief is simply that we appear to have taken teams at any cost to be "the biggest and best" but we all knew the league was the best Sunday league in the area already, that's why we play in it but simnply looking at the disruption that teams leaving has caused this year suggests we have outgrown our capability. I believe it unfeasible to think we can continbue to bring in 15 to 20 teams per season which when needing approx 18 for a squad means another 270 to 360 players that will all pay their money and not drop out and leave their mates in the s**t.

I urge some thought to go into this and respect many people will have their opinion which may differ significantly by all means share it.
I'd also like to add that I ave NOTHING against new sides and a few spring to mind that have started up fresh squads and kept going and they should feel proud for that but I fear we could be contributing to the downfall of the best Sunday league in the region if we do not address this problem
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Polska legend II
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 12:45 pm

Respect your opinion, but it is totally untrue that the league go actively looking for clubs just to bolster our numbers. remember that these clubs apply to US and not the other way round. the demand for places is high, and I know there is a strict interview and selection process in place, which also includes a very frank discussion about money and the costs associated per season.

although the league has to deal with the fallouts, the problem lies purely and simply at the doorstep of the club(s) involved. there are 2 reasons clubs survive or fold - money and players. if you have a nucleus of players who understand that a club will need to find around £1200 each season and that they all need to contribute to that then fine. i know that some clubs have many players who run up debts because they don't pay their way yet they still constantly get picked and play each week. i think society has also dictated that sunday morning football as a whole is now facing a challenge - the average age of the sunday footballing generation are now the ones who had TVs and videos in their bedrooms at the age of 3 back in the day, and think they have a divine right to everything they want. this means loyalty is not what it once was, and more players jump ship when things don't go their way as they cannot tolerate losing like sporting gentlemen! I must stress that by no means all players are like this, but the stats will back up that sunday morning open age football has declined in the past decade.

i would ship any player out by 1 October if they refused to pay their way and demanded a start each week - no clubs deserve a player like that. i get your frustration LKFC - presumably this team that may or may not fold will directly affect your results?

Also remember that if these players are Alliance regulars, they have to pay their share of any debts for a club folding before they can sign for anyone else

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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:13 pm

I am constantly surprised by the number of teams falling out of the Wigston area, and always wondered where the players come from-

At the interviews, I wouldnt call them strict at all to be honest. When we attend, albeit 4 seasons ago our answers were "we will" rather than "we have"....i mean our name changed for starters!

I dont mean to pick on Aylestone Lounge with my example but I saw these guys pre season up at Judgemeadow and they were a shambles and it was a surprise they lasted as long as they did...i mean they turned up to our game in September (4 agmes in) with 10 men at 10.40am and twice in one game a lad came off the pitch, sat down and had a fag during the game chatting to us on the side- not exactly what you expect from new sides.

I hope the Alliance League maybe encourage the new teams next season to take part in the pool of teams wanting early friendlies that Mark is organising and maybe use them to have a look at teams and address any concerns they might have, and maybe have a second "review" before the AGM. Only a suggestion
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Polska legend II
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:18 pm

point taken, i guess at the end of the day the league can only support a club so far and once the season starts we are at the mercy of the poorly run clubs!

i agree about Aylestone - had a friendly with them in August and was surprised at the way they imploded - saw the NRI lads the following week and they asked me what they had been like football wise as they saw them as biggest challengers for the title! I did say at that point that I did not think they would last the season. (and wish this had been proved wrong)
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L.K.F.C
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:18 pm

I must say I equally understand your point and my apologies if I implied the league are actively looking for teams as I know that not to be the case however likewise the stringent interview simply must be questioned when a number of teams don't make it through one season and from memory one twam didn't even play a game!!
As I say I believe throughout this process WHERE the players are coming from is overlooked and I think that is a problem.

You are very correct with the age ad society issues you mention. We are lucky to have a core squad with an averrage age of 22 that love their football and turn up week in week out but we have had to part with a few young prima donas.

I don't know how the latest will affect us yet but I'm sorry but I can't agree tat the league play NO part in simply expanding to such a size so quickly that issues such as this would as a result become inmcreasingly likely. At this point I know no other league that has this many drop outs this season, granted I am only in a position to know this of 4 others so it could be that somewhere this is the case. I want to state that I am certainly not anti alliance league, I am a firm supporter which is why I raise the topic!
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Polska legend II
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:20 pm

don't forget also that in the law of averages, if we have 20% more teams than other Sunday leagues, were are naturally going to get a higher percentage of drop outs
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Paulo
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:22 pm

Mark i was at that game you vs Aylestone Lounge....I also heard rumours of them to win the league and couldnt help but laugh to be honest!
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:24 pm

yes, very interesting second half where we just camped in their half and they let us knock the ball around! and i think their heads went at 3-3!
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L.K.F.C
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:26 pm

Polska legend II wrote:
don't forget also that in the law of averages, if we have 20% more teams than other Sunday leagues, were are naturally going to get a higher percentage of drop outs

Exavtlly... This is the basis of my point. Are we growing that quickly that in reality we are causing more bad than good!
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Polska legend II
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:29 pm

but what can we do if all these clubs want to join? they also have to have a minimum of 12 players signed on by the end of July.
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Polska legend II
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:30 pm

and just to add... I thought our biggest problem this year would be finding all the refs required - just shows what a good job Stewart Walker is doing
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Hellboy
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:44 pm

Back to the topic............its the same players that jump ship, as it has been mentioned, one player leaves and their mates soon follow, causing teams to fold, we all know who the culprits are, if you only take the time to look, its the same names joining different teams nearly every season, or starting new teams on the basis that they want to be with their mates, it will just go round and round until someone puts their foot down, and looks into the situation properly, a brilliant topic, sums up everthing i think about pothunters, and changing teams and playing in lower divisions etc etc...these are the people that are causing teams to fold, lets see how many more ships get jumped on, this season and the next.
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Hellboy
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:48 pm

regulate players, see how many other teams they've left before, and for what reasons, if its being monitored you could soon sort out the main culprits, the ones that come and go as they please, and have no intention of being committed and sportsman like.
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Polska legend II
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 1:55 pm

I was on topic young man! surely an expanded league has to make sure it also has enough referees?

I don't think it's that simple Hellboy - take Aylestone - they were in big trouble before the season started - not because a load of them jumped ship. And a certain club who may or may not be folding had designs on winning the league all summer - and as soon as they got beaten a few times, didn't want to know. It's a lack of commitment. One of their players agreed to play for us 2 seasons ago, and I arranged to pick him up for a pre season friendly. Not only did he not show, he didn't have the courtesy to ring me and I never heard from him again. With players like that around is it any wonder some clubs are let down?

The regulation would be an interesting experiment but very time consuming - are you offering your services?

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Hellboy
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 2:04 pm

But also take this as an example, i wont name names, but theres a player who has played for at least 8 different teams, and when the going gets tough, bye bye(spineless), yes its lack of committment and respect for others, and poo poo's all the hard work the managers and staff behind the scenes put in. Name and shame and if you've played for more than 2 clubs in 3 seasons then you need to be looked at, ive always said this is whats spoiling the league, pity they cant take a leaf out of polskas track record, and still be around come hell or high water. Unless the teams folds for a really good reason, then i dont think the excuse that "my mates leaving and so am i", is a good enough reason.

And dont forget these are the people that walk off with the pots and the dedicated few get zilch.
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Sparta3
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 2:08 pm

The key thing, in my opinion, is for the league to ensure that the constituion is right. Allowing so many new teams makes that job incredibly difficult, especially at the bottom. To quote a committee member, "the bottom two divisions was almost like picking out of a hat as nobody had any idea what the new teams were like".

A suggestion would be to set a target for the number of teams and stick to it, rather than accept every application that meets the usual criteria. This way, the league could cherry pick from the best ones.

For those that don't make it, give them an LSL/CSL/HSL application and if they survive the season elsewhere, invite them to reapply.
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Polska legend II
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 2:09 pm

so the player with 8 teams must be pretty good because he seems welcomed wherever he goes?
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Hellboy
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 2:20 pm

Pretty good at folding teams, 6 out of the 8 now folded...but lets pick up on that important fact though, the stats dont lie!
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L.K.F.C
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 4:19 pm

Sparts is bang on in my thinking, I understand the league is highly sought after to play in but we simply don't have to accept EVERY team that applies if it is going to be to the detriment of the league (and this is my concern)
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 4:52 pm

This is a very interesting topic. We started 5 seasons ago and have still got a core 8 or 9 that were part of the original squad. We have worked hard, played well and finally got to the promised land of the Prem this season having started in division 3.

However, although we have thoroughly enjoyed this season, it has to be said the whole division has become a bit of a joke with only 7 teams remaining in it, which has slightly tarnished our first season in the top division.

I can kind of see both sides of the argument, but in my opinion, the league has been accepting too many teams merely to say we are the biggest league and to stop them going elsewhere. It is a wonderful league and I fully believe it is the best Sunday league around by a country mile, but when there are so many teams dropping out and the supposed best division only consisting of 7 teams, the fantastic reputation the league currently has is at risk.

It my belief that a more stringent selection process and less new teams each season should be the way forward. It is obviously a difficult and complicated process and I take nothing away from the Alliance officials involved but maybe the selection criteria and interview process needs reviewing. Even the fact that teams only require 12 players to be signed on could be reviewed, as this is a relatively low number. Also, maybe consider a deposit at the start of the season that teams get back at the end once they have completed the whole season? These are just ideas of course, but for me something needs changing.
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 5:16 pm

I think Sunday football isn't what it used to be.

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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 5:22 pm

The Premier Division this season has been the biggest farce and I completely agree with Sparta Moshdocks comments.

I also think the strength of the Premier this season is anywhere near the standard that it has been in previous seasons - not one of our Premier sides made the last 4 of the Premier Cup, the first time this has happened in a long time plus only 1 of those sides made the last 8 of the Billy Walton which is usually a good barometre

As far as I'm aware the league have a strict interview process and each team is recommended at the AGM, if you have concerns, its at that stage that it needs to be highlighted - every member club has its say.
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 5:32 pm

A good debate........but I agree with Mark, the clubs and players need to look at themselves not the league.

Reliable and committed players (and managers come to that) are hard to find, but find them, keep them happy and run the club well and folding will not get on the agenda

If you get together as a group and decided to run/play/assist with a side why would you do so if the commitment is not there in the first place????

The league can only take decisions based on the information it is given/told, without a massive change to rules what can the league do

For example, if all signings had to be made prior to constitution being drawn up, no transfers allowed, only side for ONE Sunday side irrespective of league, team folds you can't re-sign for anyone else that season etc etc

This would mean a busy summer for clubs......but everyone knows where you stand, team would be put in the "right" division and some teams could be refused entry, not enough players, the "wrong type" of player etc

These are the kind of radical changes that might be required to give the league the best chance of getting things right.....will it solve the problem, I doubt it! Would it make life more difficult for the clubs certainly!

As I said at the start the clubs need to control this themselves

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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 5:54 pm

i have said for 3 years now that the top 5 or 6 need to go into the 'prem' to create a bigger division and more competition. and maybe do away with the word 'prem' altogether because it seems to scare many people off. and with a bigger division and more fixtures, you would get less superstars playing come second half of the season because their commitments to saturday sides would be greater therefore making a level playing field for everyone else
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Polska legend II
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 5:54 pm

Hellboy wrote:
Pretty good at folding teams, 6 out of the 8 now folded...but lets pick up on that important fact though, the stats dont lie!


1 player doesn't fold a club. but 4 or 5 ponces do - don't sign them on
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 6:16 pm

Magna 73 Sec wrote:
The Premier Division this season has been the biggest farce and I completely agree with Sparta Moshdocks comments.

I also think the strength of the Premier this season is anywhere near the standard that it has been in previous seasons - not one of our Premier sides made the last 4 of the Premier Cup, the first time this has happened in a long time plus only 1 of those sides made the last 8 of the Billy Walton which is usually a good barometre

As far as I'm aware the league have a strict interview process and each team is recommended at the AGM, if you have concerns, its at that stage that it needs to be highlighted - every member club has its say.

The issue with your last comment is that member clubs get to know nothing about the clubs entering and therefore cannot make an educated decision. It is up to the committee to make the right decisions at the earlier stages.
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 6:49 pm

the trouble is it is never that simple - chances are the likes of Aylestone Lounge stuck their necks out and suggested they were a lot better than they were so as not to play in div 6 or 7 each week which they presumably thought they would win at a canter. maybe the question is not how good you are, but how committed are your players?
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 8:24 pm

Maybe a selection of existing clubs should be involved in the initial 'vetting' process. it'll do two things; 1. Allow the league to gather more info, and 2. Allow clubs to speak up if they have objections (this is hard to do at the AGM as you're literally speaking out against a room full of 80+ people, with the suggested clubs present).
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Polska legend II
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeMon 12 Mar 2012, 11:45 pm

Still don't think u can prevent clubs folding no matter what u put in place.
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeTue 13 Mar 2012, 12:17 am

Polska legend II wrote:
Still don't think u can prevent clubs folding no matter what u put in place.

Executions???
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeTue 13 Mar 2012, 6:38 am

Well, would draw big crowds
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeTue 13 Mar 2012, 7:30 am

I agree it is a very difficult area, but at least trying to put extra precautions in from the very beginning may well stop quite as many dropping out.

I think ensuring teams have at least 14 players signed on by the end of June (or whenever it was!) would be a start. Then also maybe a club deposit or even a deposit per player to play in the league. Something like this may have an effect due to the fact that money is so important!

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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeTue 13 Mar 2012, 8:15 am

Sparta3 wrote:
Maybe a selection of existing clubs should be involved in the initial 'vetting' process. it'll do two things; 1. Allow the league to gather more info, and 2. Allow clubs to speak up if they have objections (this is hard to do at the AGM as you're literally speaking out against a room full of 80+ people, with the suggested clubs present).


This happens, there is a small sub committee that interviews clubs, normally 3 people (anymore and it becomes impossible for everyone to have a say). The 3 individuals that were involved at the last round (I think from memory) were the secretary's of two existing, long standing clubs both with lots of knowledge and experience. The third individual prior to his present role was player and secretary of another club.

The league can't get them all right and has to take what it is told on face value

For example, team with 1 ex-prem player involved puts in application for new side and suggest div 5, they would be questioned on this, "if your ex-team mates from the prem join you will be far too good for that league" Player may reply with its only me!!! League are likely to disagree and put team in say Div 3!! 6/7 ex prem players come "pot hunting"but don't sign till the season has started and constitution can't be changed and they win the division at a canter. (Only an example btw)

Is the league in the wrong? Or as I have said already do the clubs have to take a look at themselves... The same can be said on the flip side its ok have 6/7 players that are capable of playing at Div 2 but if you have no reliable players around them and are scrapping a side together each week of not very good players then div 7 is a better place for you.....build slowly and have success over a number of years.

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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeTue 13 Mar 2012, 10:24 am

L.K.F.C wrote:
Sparts is bang on in my thinking, I understand the league is highly sought after to play in but we simply don't have to accept EVERY team that applies if it is going to be to the detriment of the league (and this is my concern)

Totally agree, cant you both get on the alliance committee?
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeTue 13 Mar 2012, 10:51 am

teams are turned away believe it or not
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeTue 13 Mar 2012, 12:14 pm

I mentioned a couple of years ago that ALL new sides should be put in a NEW division for their opening year, although this dosen't totally iradicate any foldings in the other divisions I genuinely believe it will minimise the disruption.

To put all the new sides in the same league will not only show the ones that are there for the long haul but also a better way of putting them in the RIGHT division the following season.

Now i'm not saying the divisions are wrong this season, far from it, i think whoever decided the leagues have done a great job this term but it seems that the newer teams are the most likely to fold, this disrupting the outcome of league titles.

I also believe that the new division with the new teams in will really test the so called pot hunters resolve too. If they all new that all these super star teams were being put in the same division the players that normally fancy a jump of ship to win something might infact think they are better off where they are, this strengthening the current teams chances of survival.

Good debate by the way. L.K.F.C.
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeTue 13 Mar 2012, 12:16 pm

st patricks, hurricanes and bulls head all folded this season - none of whom were new teams
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeTue 13 Mar 2012, 12:42 pm

Polska legend II wrote:
st patricks, hurricanes and bulls head all folded this season - none of whom were new teams

Shall i shut up then, lol
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeTue 13 Mar 2012, 12:46 pm

not at all - add to the debate! just think it shows that no one can stop clubs folding if they are run badly - or perhaps more accurately - are full of unreliable players. and although I have sympathy with teams whose results get wiped (we lost 6 points this season due to St Pats and Hurricanes going), it is always a really raw, emotive subject when it first happens. this thread was started by someone whose team will presumably lose points.
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PostSubject: Re: Alliance League at saturation?   Alliance League at saturation? Icon_minitimeTue 13 Mar 2012, 1:06 pm

We are not dradstically affected by any means, I used this simply as a "how many can we take" scenario.
My question is: where did the players from these sides go??? And as a result where did the players they replace go??? Etc... Etc... Ther more teams you allow the more likely the movement becomes and as a result the more likely this scenario becomes.
I happily accept that much is on the teams themselves but thern we look for an overseeing body which in this case is the league, to take theo virew of whether a joining side will help or hinder the league as a whole!
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