Request for a free week.

Firstly, I don't want to sound like I'm questioning the job that James does, or saying I could do it better as I believe he does a fantastic job and one that it tremendously difficult and time consuming.

However, we (Sparta Moshdock) have asked for a bit of understanding and help from the league and they have failed to assist us in anyway.

We have a game on Sunday 23rd of December, however, we have several members of the squad unavailable, which is understandable considering how close is it to Christmas. Now, we know we missed the free date request deadline by a week (although I was unaware of any fixtures being published until I received the booklet today) but we are giving over a months notice of a game we would like to be postponed. I'm not sure why this is such a problem? Plenty of teams have done it much closer to the time and even not bothered turning up on the day. It is a big game for us, and not one that we want to start with 10 men or have to sign extra players on just to help us.

I do understand that people will say "well when should the cut off point be etc" but I just believe a month should be enough.

I just feel a little let down by the league as we are a club that have never faild to fulfill a fixture or even used our free date in the past.

Thought you only had to give a month anyway.

oily wrote:

Thought you only had to give a month anyway.

The cut off date is published in the preceding fixture booklet.

just say you have an big saturday cup match so u need a free week

norty14 wrote:

just say you have an big saturday cup match so u need a free week

no no no no no no no stop it

there was an option given some weeks ago now (3-4 at least from memory) that said clubs could choose either the 23rd or the 30th december off?

The Fixture Booklet which is sent to all Club Secretaries and is posted on the website actually said

Free Date;
If you want a free date within the next fixture booklet (running from Sunday 25th November 2012 – Sunday 23rd December) please let James Shephard know by Sunday 11th November 2012. Remember you are only allowed one free date in the season. Round 3 of the county cup is scheduled for Sunday 2nd December 2012. Any free date requests for this date should be made directly to County FA. Please be aware the likelihood of this being granted is slim. Please keep James informed of any of these requests!

Christmas / New Year 2012;
A full fixture schedule will be organised for Sunday 23rd December 2012. Games for Sunday 30th December 2012 will be subject to team and pitch availability. Please e-mail James (jamesshephard@kitsonsthermal.co.uk) now if you would like a game.

This was posted to the website on 17 October and sent to Club Secretaries very shortly thereafter (with 48 hours) depending on the postal system

I understand this Gordon....and fully admit we missed the deadline, but with the Prem down to 9 teams, I'm not sure one week without a fixture will cause that much of a problem, especially with over a months notice.

After all, it is Sunday league football, a lot of the lads wouldn't of known what they were doing at Xmas until more recently, and even if they did, wouldn't automatically think to tell us. It is extremely close to Xmas, and yet we still managed to give the league over a months notice.

We just feel a little understanding and support from the league would be good....but I guess that's too much to expect.

Long range weather forecast suggests snow and minus 8

Gordon wrote:

The Fixture Booklet which is sent to all Club Secretaries and is posted on the website actually said

Free Date;
If you want a free date within the next fixture booklet (running from Sunday 25th November 2012 – Sunday 23rd December) please let James Shephard know by Sunday 11th November 2012. Remember you are only allowed one free date in the season. Round 3 of the county cup is scheduled for Sunday 2nd December 2012. Any free date requests for this date should be made directly to County FA. Please be aware the likelihood of this being granted is slim. Please keep James informed of any of these requests!

Christmas / New Year 2012;
A full fixture schedule will be organised for Sunday 23rd December 2012. Games for Sunday 30th December 2012 will be subject to team and pitch availability. Please e-mail James (jamesshephard@kitsonsthermal.co.uk) now if you would like a game.

This was posted to the website on 17 October and sent to Club Secretaries very shortly thereafter (with 48 hours) depending on the postal system

Well if this is talking about following information and rules from the league Gordon, then nowhere in the rules do I see anything about postponing a match a week before due to Saturday football....double standards here I believe, and ones that are not very impressive.

Those were exceptional circumstances, yours are not, with respect. You must have read all about it on here surely?

I did....but why are they considered exceptional circumstances and ours not? Saturday football should be kept seperate from Sunday football in my opinion.

And nowhere does it say this apparent rule can suddenly happen in a season.

The point is they couldn't get a team out so had the game postponed without question a week before the fixture, we can't get a team out and give the league OVER A MONTHS NOTICE and get no help whatsoever. To be honest, it seems pretty typical of this league.

I think this debate has been done to death. I happen to agree with u about saturday-sunday football. After spending a few seasons getting spanked by teams full of saturday superstars who I wasn't allowed 2 name as goalscorers because they'd get in trouble with their saturday sides it drove me mad. The trouble is the league got hammered over the FA cup affair and it won't be the last time I'm sure that people take to the forum accusing them of double standards because they can't get a side out. What is effectively being asked is a bending of the rules and once those floodgates are opened the whole rules become a farce. May I ask with respect why u didn't call the free week off when u had the chance? Polska incidentally have a game for this date and 5 of our players are in poland so we are already in the process of signing on replacements

We could do with November 24th 2013 off. Is this enough notice or shall we start signing more players on now?

Just give them the free week who cares, its Christmas everyone!!!!! In fact give us our point back as well, it's Christmas!!!!

Seriously though just let them have the game off. The lsl would, oh and free subscription as well.

What about the side Moshdock are down to play.... How do they fit in to your reasoning?

Well it doesn't really matter. We used our free week and it definately was not as long as a month in advance, and the fixture was already out.

So I'm with Moshdock on this one.

Polska Legend II - We didn't take it because at the time we didn't know so many were going to be away. As I stated earlier, for a Sunday team, knowing over a month and a half in advance their plans is unlikely, informing us of those plans...impossible!

Hell boy - to be honest, I would agree with you if it wasn't over a month before and it being so close to Xmas I'm sure they wouldn't mind that much.

Paul Daniels - is that a fact? If so, what is the difference for us?

Like I said, I don't understand why a team not being able to get a team out for one reason is acceptable but not another, especially as we are giving over a months notice...whatever people say it is double standards!

Paul Daniels wrote:

Well it doesn't really matter. We used our free week and it definately was not as long as a month in advance, and the fixture was already out.

So I'm with Moshdock on this one.

Not a very caring and considerate attitude to have towards your fellow sportsman, you can't say "sod you jack i'm alright", thats not the right attitude to have, go to the corner with the pointy D hat on your head, and hang your big globulous heavy head in shame, tut tut....

I pleaded with James to give us that week off but he quite rightly told me to do one (politely of course!). there is nothing in the league rules about the FA saga, so I presume that is why a decision had to be made in very exceptional circumstances. However, the other rules about calling games off are very clear. I think the league have taken some very unnecessary flak over what happened at the start of the season, I personally think a months notice is academic if the deadline has already been missed - thats why the rules are in place.

I personally like Sparta Moshdock and think they are a credit to the league - they have come up through the ranks, done everything the right way, and haven't folded when getting to the highest level like 90% of clubs with similar track records have.

As the fixture is 33 days away, would it not be possible to sign some one off replacements to get the game fulfilled? I still think the weather will come to the rescue in any case!

The point is the 'exceptional circumstances' were an inability to field a team due to players being unavailable. Therefore the same 'exceptional circumstances' exist here; we are unable to field a team. The reasons behind the first case were related to Saturday football, something that should not interfere with Sunday football in such a significant way.

With regards to us signing players, why was the same reasoning not used in the FA Cup saga. They could have found these players that you seem to think are so readily available. And, what is worse, I'm pretty sure the number of players involved in the FA Cup would not have stopped them fielding 11 players.

I know it appears like we are moaning, but we would just like a bit of understanding from the league. If they want a competitive Prem then we need to be able to field a strong side and not sign random players on just to fulfill a fixture.

I didn't say players were readily available. I know from experience they are not. And from memory I think the whole FA Cup thing was done very last minute, as opposed to many weeks beforehand.

My point is that the early season saga will be rolled out now every time a club can't fulfil a fixture, rightly or wrongly. If the FA Cup games hadn't existed, then there would be nothing to blame the league over. If the league posted information on the website on 17 October informing clubs that they could call off a game over Christmas then I think to criticise them now is unfair, especially using the Fairfield situation, which has no bearing on Christmas fixtures.

But I maintain I have a lot of time for Sparta - but as we are also in the same boat on the 23rd then we just have to get on with it and maybe hope for 2 feet of snow!

spartamoshdock wrote:

The point is the 'exceptional circumstances' were an inability to field a team due to players being unavailable. Therefore the same 'exceptional circumstances' exist here; we are unable to field a team. The reasons behind the first case were related to Saturday football, something that should not interfere with Sunday football in such a significant way.

With regards to us signing players, why was the same reasoning not used in the FA Cup saga. They could have found these players that you seem to think are so readily available. And, what is worse, I'm pretty sure the number of players involved in the FA Cup would not have stopped them fielding 11 players.

I know it appears like we are moaning, but we would just like a bit of understanding from the league. If they want a competitive Prem then we need to be able to field a strong side and not sign random players on just to fulfill a fixture.

same reason as ours, so if you get it, we want our point back and the 30 quid fine and we want the 23rs of december off to

Why doesn't every team sack off the game on the 23rd, we will all take a points deduction so that the leagues are still exactly the same, we'll all pay the fine, and then next season we'll have free registration because of the extra money generated.

I think that's the most feasable and sensible idea.

Whose with me? Say No to the 23rd.

whilst we are on wishlists, i want a puppy for Christmas, world peace and little Timmy to finally get some gruel

Paul Daniels wrote:

Why doesn't every team sack of the game on the 23rd, we will all take a points deduction so that the leagues are still exactly the same, we'll all pay the fine, and then next season we'll have free registration because of the extra money generated.

I think that's the most feasable and sensible idea.

Who with me? Say No to the 23rd.

crazy, but maybe...just maybe

Paul Daniels wrote:

Why doesn't every team sack off the game on the 23rd, we will all take a points deduction so that the leagues are still exactly the same, we'll all pay the fine, and then next season we'll have free registration because of the extra money generated.

I think that's the most feasable and sensible idea.

Whose with me? Say No to the 23rd.

Can we have a trial run this Sunday ?

Widds wrote:

whilst we are on wishlists, i want a puppy for Christmas, world peace and little Timmy to finally get some gruel

Personally I think little Timmy aka Tiny Tim would rather wish he wasn't so invalid, rather than some gruel.

Apparently Moshdocks opponents on the 23rd have asked for 3 points this Xmas. Wish granted.

Paul Daniels wrote:

Widds wrote:

whilst we are on wishlists, i want a puppy for Christmas, world peace and little Timmy to finally get some gruel

Personally I think little Timmy aka Tiny Tim would rather wish he wasn't so invalid, rather than some gruel.

Apparently Moshdocks opponents on the 23rd have asked for 3 points this Xmas. Wish granted.

its the season that keeps on giving

I think we've only had 2 games during December in the last 3 seasons because of the weather so i wouldn't worry too much or waste a free date on it!

Widds wrote:

whilst we are on wishlists, i want a puppy for Christmas, world peace and little Timmy to finally get some gruel

without m&s it wouldn't be chrita.

I think there are a couple of things to note about this thread, I do sympathise with Moshdocks plight and can see why the issue of double standards have been brought up again. I fear it will time and time again this season whilst the FA Cup decision lingers. I stand by this was the incorrect call and them games should have gone ahead (not to punish the two teams involved, but to save this further agro). But I’ll try not to focus on that, I’ll try to say some points that I think are relevant in this instance.

Firstly, this is not James decision to make, he just publishes the fixtures. If after he has done so, then one of those games cannot go ahead for varying reasons then it is out of his hands and into the discipline committee. The only way James revisits the fixtures is if there is a problem with pitch etc (even then if this is slightly suspect it can referred to discipline). He cannot just go changing fixtures as he pleases as the fixture is advertised to both teams. Any change may be questioned by the opposition for which he would have to provide a valid reason else he would be answerable to the committee.

The last thing we need is another person being opened up to accusations of favouritism. If he did this for one, he would have to do it for all. I could recite a few cases from down the years when I tried to have a quiet word with him and was told he simply couldn’t help.

Secondly, I’m not sure what steps you took in order to get the game cancelled. But I would imagine that the league would be far more willing to listen to your case (and those of others) if you never highlighted it so prominently on this forum. I’m not saying this happens, I honestly don’t know, but now everyone is aware of this case, the league cannot try to help you as best they can as if this game is now rearranged the outcry from the forum would be mass I’m sure. There is always going to be those for and against. It would only serve as further ammunition to beat the league over the head with.

There are possible solutions as you state that could have been tried, scheduling other opposition for your opponents on that day for example (you could even look into the feasibility of this yourself as with 9 teams in the Prem one must not have a game), or asking them of the willingness to call the game off mutually given they might be struggling as you highlight its closeness to Christmas (I’m not sure how discipline would deal with this, but it would surely give you a better chance of escaping sanction) .

I agree 100% that a month, in normal circumstances is adequate time, and that you have done exceptional well to notify the league so early of the issues so to cause as little disruption of positive. It’s nothing more than I would expect from a club of Moshdocks standing. However, the sad fact is, as in the case of Webbys, it was not within the rules. Therefore the argument can fall on deaf ears.

Just because team A and B got away with it earlier in the season, any appeal will result in this case being judged in isolation. The evidence of the seasons earlier decision will not be relevant or heard. The sad fact is, on that basis, it appears that there is now very little you can do.

I can only suggest that you keep the fixture in place (as is your right to do so) and you pray for the correct weather forecast!

I hope its an Indian winter........but..... As is usual, there are uncertainties in the forecast for this period. There are however, some signs of more settled conditions across much of Leicester during the second part of December. So, although there are no strong indications of any particular weather type predominating, on balance, warmer than average conditions are likely, with an unlikely increased risk of frost and fog, as well as some warmer showery days to look forward to, that should shoot British gas up its large a#s#..

I understand it is not James' fault and having emailed him about the matter, and thanks to his quick and very honest reply, I have told him this. It is obviously down to the league.

As for the steps I took, I went to James and explained the situation, he quite simply said there was no chance. At this point, I felt my only option was to voice my displeasure at such a poor decision (not aimed at James, as I know his hands are tied) on an open forum so others could see and offer their opinions....which I am pretty sure is the point of the forum.

The 'possible solutions' part almost proves my point....there are 9 teams, so a game could easily be re-scheduled if both parties are happy to do so, seeing as we have given them over a months notice. But, personally, I believe it is not our place to be touting around for a game. We have given notice in what we believe is plenty of time for an alternative to happen, although the League seem to think that 5 weeks is to close to the fixture.

The final point you make sums it up really. Why should teams A and team B be allowed in their isolated situation and not us? There is no doubt at all in my mind that in the case of the FA Cup games, the teams involved could quite easily fielded 11 players. Granted it would not of been their best team, but that should not allow them to have the fixture postponed. Now we cannot field a team, yet we are being made to play the game, having to find extra players even though it is 5 weeks in advance and not the short time those teams gave.

It is purely and simply double standards caused by extremely poor decision making in the first instance from the league. If the decision earlier in the season had not been taken then we would not have an argument, we wouldn't even bother trying as we know it would have fallen on the unhelpful deaf ears. However, they have made a rod for their own back, and whilst they will try to hide behind the excuses of 'isolated incident' or 'exceptional circumstances', it is something that we as a club feel very strongly about and would like an explanation from the league and it not to be left to James.

Just out of interest, would you be saying the same things if it wasn't Star & Garter you were playing? your initial post suggests otherwise

Moshdock - I agree with almost everything you say entirely, from the reasons you feel aggrieved to airing your plight on the forum (yes that is why its here). As I did when Webbys did the same only 2 weeks ago.

Webbys have chose to appeal to higher authorities, so perhaps you should watch that case with interest to see the outcome. See if that gives you grounds to appeal.

I do not have the answers as to why they team A and B were allowed allowances accept for the official decision which has already been published on his forum, that will not change. For which myself, and you do not agree with. But others (Polska for example) do.

I just cannot see the league making any allowances now or in the future with regards to postponements. It will only make the can of worms bigger than it already is.

sgoodman wrote:

Just out of interest, would you be saying the same things if it wasn't Star & Garter you were playing? your initial post suggests otherwise

Any Prem game is a big game for us, so it would have been the same. We don't feel we should have to find players from nowhere and sign them on to fulfill a fixture when we have informed the league 5 weeks beforehand.

CalamityScouse wrote:

Moshdock - I agree with almost everything you say entirely, from the reasons you feel aggrieved to airing your plight on the forum (yes that is why its here). As I did when Webbys did the same only 2 weeks ago.

Webbys have chose to appeal to higher authorities, so perhaps you should watch that case with interest to see the outcome. See if that gives you grounds to appeal.

I do not have the answers as to why they team A and B were allowed allowances accept for the official decision which has already been published on his forum, that will not change. For which myself, and you do not agree with. But others (Polska for example) do.

I just cannot see the league making any allowances now or in the future with regards to postponements. It will only make the can of worms bigger than it already is.

I think, unfortunately, you are right. I just felt we, as a club, needed to voice are displeasure, disappointment and disgust with the league and their poor choices and double standards. Deep down we know they won't budge.

Now things dont seem very fair, looking at the above points.

This I feel is all getting extremely out of hand.... Again.... And I for one am getting a little tired of it.....



I have been fixture secretary for 9 years and the rule regarding free dates has always been the way it is now! It's not changed all of a sudden! I understand (having been a club secretary myself for 5 years) that players don't always give you notice of when they are not available but
unfortunately this season the constant agro about double standards have really messed it up for everybody! If I cancel your game on the 23rd (I understand all your points about being a good club, never doing this etc) then I will be favouring your club??? What we are being slated for every week it seems!!

I am damned if I do and damned if I don't!! Sound familiar.....

I put in Fixture Booklet 3 - which was sent out to ALL club secretaries (in mid October 2012)in the News section



Free Date
This then stipulates the rules for a free taking and requesting date! (As Gordon posted earlier in this thread)



I make the rules on the free dae! I make the decisions on when the request has to be made by and I ultimately decide on free date decisions. Sometimes a month is enough other times it isn't! It's set on the parameters of the fixtures! God in the current booklet I've asked for 'if you want a free date in Jan or Feb' Hows that going to work...



If any of you go to Morley or Gordon or any other member of the committee asking for a free date they will point you in my direction!!



Also whilst we are on the subject I completely agreed with Gordon regarding the FA cup postponements at the start of the season! (Wrongly or rightly!)
Whatever you think or thought about the FA cup postponement decision it's been made now!!



I also don't mind saying that in the last month I have spoken to Gordon and Dennis in length about the way how we operate the free date and whether the ruling or way it's administered needs changing. I am going to mention this at the committee meeting we have on Thursday and see what happens! It will create MORE work for me, but at the end of the day as a league we ALWAYS listen to people's opinions (hence this forum) and points of view and discuss them. We wouldn't be proactive if we didn't! (you will see I've put a similar thread about the format of the Arthur Moore cup in another topic!)

So all I can say is watch this space on that.



The Free Date rule will not however be changed this season! How can we??? I've already had 10 or so clubs come to me this season asking for a free date after the published timescale and I've said no and they've played! We've also fined and deducted points from other teams that have not fulfilled fixtures! People seem to think that only the things happening with the Alliance league are the one's being broadcast on this forum



With regards to comments about "it seems typical of this league" and 'disgust with the league'-I just don't get it. Sorry but am I missing the point?? We run an amazing league. We're extremely proactive in everything we do. We don't rest on our laurels! Yeah we make mistakes but other leagues have half the number of teams and they still make mistakes and don't offer the service the Alliance league offer............

The Fixture Secretary wrote:

This I feel is all getting extremely out of hand.... Again.... And I for one am getting a little tired of it.....



I have been fixture secretary for 9 years and the rule regarding free dates has always been the way it is now! It's not changed all of a sudden! I understand (having been a club secretary myself for 5 years) that players don't always give you notice of when they are not available but
unfortunately this season the constant agro about double standards have really messed it up for everybody! If I cancel your game on the 23rd (I understand all your points about being a good club, never doing this etc) then I will be favouring your club??? What we are being slated for every week it seems!!

I am damned if I do and damned if I don't!! Sound familiar.....

I put in Fixture Booklet 3 - which was sent out to ALL club secretaries (in mid October 2012)in the News section



Free Date
This then stipulates the rules for a free taking and requesting date! (As Gordon posted earlier in this thread)



I make the rules on the free dae! I make the decisions on when the request has to be made by and I ultimately decide on free date decisions. Sometimes a month is enough other times it isn't! It's set on the parameters of the fixtures! God in the current booklet I've asked for 'if you want a free date in Jan or Feb' Hows that going to work...



If any of you go to Morley or Gordon or any other member of the committee asking for a free date they will point you in my direction!!



Also whilst we are on the subject I completely agreed with Gordon regarding the FA cup postponements at the start of the season! (Wrongly or rightly!)
Whatever you think or thought about the FA cup postponement decision it's been made now!!



I also don't mind saying that in the last month I have spoken to Gordon and Dennis in length about the way how we operate the free date and whether the ruling or way it's administered needs changing. I am going to mention this at the committee meeting we have on Thursday and see what happens! It will create MORE work for me, but at the end of the day as a league we ALWAYS listen to people's opinions (hence this forum) and points of view and discuss them. We wouldn't be proactive if we didn't! (you will see I've put a similar thread about the format of the Arthur Moore cup in another topic!)

So all I can say is watch this space on that.



The Free Date rule will not however be changed this season! How can we??? I've already had 10 or so clubs come to me this season asking for a free date after the published timescale and I've said no and they've played! We've also fined and deducted points from other teams that have not fulfilled fixtures! People seem to think that only the things happening with the Alliance league are the one's being broadcast on this forum



With regards to comments about "it seems typical of this league" and 'disgust with the league'-I just don't get it. Sorry but am I missing the point?? We run an amazing league. We're extremely proactive in everything we do. We don't rest on our laurels! Yeah we make mistakes but other leagues have half the number of teams and they still make mistakes and don't offer the service the Alliance league offer............

Well said James, if you want a free week join the LSL they have quite a few of them