Premier Division Problems !!

CSKA17 wrote:

Problem for clubs is when your struggling to get a team out, you have 9 available, plus 2 guys who owe money, not so easy to ban them then is it?

That'd be down to your poor organisation.

Widds wrote:

Hellboy wrote:

Why were players not reported for not paying their subs?

mainly because its not easy to report one of your mates, you try to sort it in house, but if good book keeping was required by the league, then it makes it easier to resolve the situation without a fall out.

Well they don't sound like very good mates if they dont pay their way, and expect someone else to fork out for them, i'd avoid so called mates like that.

This topics gone from pointing out problems, to making silly excuses as to why they dont show up or pay, if you want to play football pay your way, if you can't afford it do something that doesn't cost you any money, you don't stand outside the flicks waiting for someone else to buy you a ticket if you cant afford to go in, if you really say you can't afford the subs you are a liar, don't sign up and then lie when the bills come along.

[quote="Polska legend II"]sorry Widds but I don't agree that the league should get involved in club debts. that is clearing a club mess up! surely all players - mates or otherwise - can be told at the start of the season: if you rack up a debt of x£ then you will be reported / banned...?[/quote

fair enough, i just think it would be helpful.

Hellboy, its a very simplified way of looking at it, but if it was so simple why is it still a problem?

I think it gets complicated when trying to ban players for monies owed due to the "club rules" if they aren't sufficient etc could these not be built into the signing on forms or a template be made available for club secretaries.

Hellboy wrote:

CSKA17 wrote:

Problem for clubs is when your struggling to get a team out, you have 9 available, plus 2 guys who owe money, not so easy to ban them then is it?

That'd be down to your poor organisation.

Behave, it happens to all clubs at some stage no matter how well run

CSKA17 wrote:

Hellboy wrote:

CSKA17 wrote:

Problem for clubs is when your struggling to get a team out, you have 9 available, plus 2 guys who owe money, not so easy to ban them then is it?

That'd be down to your poor organisation.

Behave, it happens to all clubs at some stage no matter how well run

Well they're not well run, if you've signed on poor players that dont pay.

dezza wrote:

I think it gets complicated when trying to ban players for monies owed due to the "club rules" if they aren't sufficient etc could these not be built into the signing on forms or a template be made available for club secretaries.

Pay your own ####ing way in life.


any good dezza?

Haha not bad! Not sure the fa will accept it though

dezza wrote:

I think it gets complicated when trying to ban players for monies owed due to the "club rules" if they aren't sufficient etc could these not be built into the signing on forms or a template be made available for club secretaries.

from memory I think your club rules are built into the signing on forms already

the goalie wrote:

Totally disagree with the above comment, Absolute rubbish !!

Why should the management of a club be banned?. why not go further than that and ban the whole  league committee as well.
Because  they approve all signings and transfers made by managers.

I have been responsible for my clubs running for the last three years (AND 15 Before that at youth level) with a very good couple of dedicated lads that help every single weekend, it is bloody hard work mate.

We started our club two years ago ,  in our first season we won the double in div 5 , promoted to div three ,finished third , got promoted to Div 1, where we are now.and in pre season hey presto ! !!!! we lose 6 players from original squad that started club? ,
Because  "its too high in league for them to play " Their words not mine  , SO what do you do ??????

The only thing you can you can do is go and get players,  who can play at that level to be competitive and reliable to  keep your club alive .

Who does that all that mate  ! and also Finding sponsors , doing paperwork, washing kits ,collecting subs ,attending AGM,MEETINGS at the expense of seeing your family on weekends , Organising absolutely bloody everything from top to bottom.

The running a club involves so much more than just getting out of bed on a Sunday morning for 9am , grabbing your  boots play for 90 and THATS IT!!!????? o and pay a fiver , cant even get into the cinema for that mind.

Give it a go trying to run a club  and then tell me we should be all banned .

This is the best post on the topic yet and at the bottom of it the route of problem that is leading to the diminishing numbers in adult 11 a side football.

It is too difficult to run a football team nowadays and as a passtime it does not compete enough against it, the main one being doing f**k all and staying in bed.

I think the guys are still there to play football but the administration and organisation side of things, done as volunteer work through the breadth of Sunday football is not being manned.

i took the leap into secretarial and organising team affairs and as this poster says it is no walk in the park. The financial string to this job by far the most stressful and in the end, fatal for many clubs.

The FACT is that the 11 a side adult system in this country is now not fit for purpose, its broken and drastic change is needed. The procedures and systems worked 30, 20 even 10 years ago when participation levels were much more robust.

This is no slight on the admin and team who work on the league at the minute as i am sure they do a great job. I don't have the exact answer but some real business/marketing assistance is needed (it would have to come from the FA) to offer an 11 a side package deal that would be more accesible and easier to administer for the army of volunteer secretaries/ coaches / managers out there.

Too much is left for the clubs to sort out, the FA need to do more to manage the process. It will take one brave league to trial a revolutionary 11 a side concept, and it could change things for good. There are good people who help run these leagues, and their experience will be needed however they need help to bring the competitiion into the modern era.

The perfect scenario is where leagues could bring together pitch providers and sponsos. They could match the perfect sponsor with the right team, i.e. a pub in beaumont leys with lads from that area, or non-pub sponsor with a team who have said they don't have much of a drinking culture and as so become a better fit. Then the league could help communicate with local pitch providers, councils/ football clubs to put this together. The league could then put together a set off the shelf fee package for a club to take on which would be subsidised and affordable.

More help in regards to organising team affairs, matchday issues and admin work could be given to volunteers and the whole process would become easier.

I've tried to put a lot down here but may seem a bit disjointed as i've just wrote whats come out of my head, however i know this is the way forward if adult football, on sundays is going to continue. one day i believe it could die altogether and we will remember the day when we used to play sunday morning footy

some excellent points made there mate, unfortunately i think county FA tend to look at Sunday football as a cash cow to support other age groups. Kids and women's football gets more spending per head then male adult football.

Thanks mate. Could be a more successful cash cow though if managed better. Honestly think it could do, but would need a revolution and fresh faces, new ideas. The ultimate goal is to make an 11 a side season in an adult sunday league a packaged product. Sounds a bit of a strange concept but its done in other leisure industries and service industries and is the way things sell. Look at that law firm in Leicester who revolutionised the market by packagine law services and opening their offices 7 days a week, sounded stupid at first but they are thriving now, there is a gap in the market for this at sunday league level. 5 a side is a packaged, accesible product and the participation is growing. To make this successful the key to putting that package together is that somebody needs to bring together all the cash in/out flows. It will take a lot of work. Maybe I'll be the man to lead the revolution!

There's more established leagues that the FA does not put enough money in to already, they wont get involved with them all.

this is sunday football, and it is about the lowest rung on the ladder that the FA has any contact with, there's so many levels, the alliance are not going to get any finacial input from them(my opinion), not when there's more skillful leagues across the country bringing players on, and a very small percent of these players might just make it to the big time.

this is so far down the line from the national game we've got no chance, its never going to happen, and we all know that realistically, i think people should really respect and take care of this league(more so than some people do at the minute), its not going to get any help from anywhere else.

Some people cant even be bothered to turn up, pay their subs or fines, why on earth would anyone want to put money into this scenario.

No one is going to commit their hard earned cash on people who dont commit to being a player, and team member.

I think footballman makes some interesting points, but I personally don't feel that there is the great opportunity out there that he believes there is. As many have pointed out, whilst 'grass roots' football may be championed by the FA, this is invariably kids' football, and open age adult Sunday morning is the very, very poor relation. There are 3 main headaches with running a team:

1. Players. No players - no team.
2. Finance. No finance - no team.
3. Willing volunteers. Too many teams rely on 1-2 people to 'do everything'

The finances are a major issue, because, as with everything in life, the price of just about every activity or commodity is going up, and at our level of football, clubs are kept afloat by players or sponsors, or both. Sunday morning football is becoming very costly, but inevitably pub sponsors that were mentioned are themselves in short supply, because pubs are closing all the time and that industry is being decimated. There just aren't the ready supply of sponsors out there that there were 10+ years ago.

Players come and go, but we are seeing the impact of the Play Station generation on our game. As Michael Owen said when he retired, in the 80s and 90, kids would go out and play football on parks without being asked. Nowadays, there is so much more choice and so many other activities to take them away. And many of these kids have grown up much more likely to spend cold Sunday mornings indoors on their games than actually getting out and playing. This is also impacting across many levels on Saturdays as well in my experience.

I think it reflects well on our league that so many teams still want to play in the Alliance - it is a testament to the hard work that goes on behind the scenes - we have bucked the trend and numbers keep going up rather than down. In my honest opinion, too many times, those teams that fold are too full of unsuitable players who are unreliable (especially financially) who just don't have any loyalty.

footballman wrote:

Thanks mate.  Could be a more successful cash cow though if managed better.  Honestly think it could do, but would need a revolution and fresh faces, new ideas.  The ultimate goal is to make an 11 a side season in an adult sunday league a packaged product. Sounds a bit of a strange concept but its done in other leisure industries and service industries and is the way things sell. Look at that law firm in Leicester who revolutionised the market by packagine law services and opening their offices 7 days a week, sounded stupid at first but they are thriving now, there is a gap in the market for this at sunday league level.  5 a side is a packaged, accesible product and the participation is growing. To make this successful the key to putting that package together is that somebody needs to bring together all the cash in/out flows. It will take a lot of work.  Maybe I'll be the man to lead the revolution!  

Again, I don't think the scope is there to 'package' 11 a side Sunday morning adult football. Those other industries you mention offer something in return (normally financial possibilities) and the bulk of players and volunteers on Sunday mornings have one thing in common - love of the game. 5 a sides are seemingly going well (Pitch Invasion springs to mind) but there is far, far less commitment involved so that is the real reason behind the success. At Pitch Invasion you turn up on a Monday night needing only 6 or 7 players and it is usually at a reasonable time in the evening, with only the weekly cost involved around the cost of a Sunday morning referee. There are no other fees such as league / FA affiliation, insurance, pitch hire etc. etc.

The only way to help Sunday mornings is to bring the costs down - I think the biggest culprit are the councils and indeed all pitch owners whose charges are far too high.

I know this forum is for proper sports, so my apologies in advance...

The leicester cricket league has merged all leagues in the county, so one league every Saturday. Perhaps the only way forward is to combine all the local leagues. It would mean some people lose a bit of power, but overall would benefit leicester football surely?

you could easily see that happening in years to come, although I still think some leagues would cling on to their own identity or at least want to.

i think its the only way. get all the teams together, have central registration. If a team folds mid season players suspended until end of season, teams pay a diminishing retainer for league membership.

Ive been in the alliance league for18 years and the down fall of all Sunday football is simple. Numbers and loyalty have dropped since clubs and pubs had extended drinking hours. Back in the day, club finished at 2, in bed for 3, and finished your business at 3.04!!!!! Good 7 hours kip, football with the lads. Now most lads out til 5/6/7, what chance you got???

That is a great point

never thought about that, but very true

Agree with lots of this especially about grass routes football.
We have an instance of this at 4g pitches at saffron lane.
After a couple of yearstraining here we have been told our position to train has been terminated because the parent clubs g.n.g and st andrews have taken our slot.
Not once we have missed a payment and we pay the full price.
Heard the other clubs get this for a substantially reduced rate for thier
slots so how can this be cost effective to the leicester city council reducing
prices when they are always moaning about cuts they have to make.
Just once again sunday or any adult football doesnt really matter to respetive fa.s councils
or anyone else.

Thanks lads for some feedback particularly mr polska who added some intelligent critique to what i said. As i mentioned above i was a little headstrong in my piece and probably over extended my optimism by suggestion the FA may provide real attention to this part of the football ladder. Also i think there probably isn't huge potential in real terms, but i think relatively speaking in the context of where sunday football is now then there is potential for it to be rebranded almost and growth and enjoyment levels increased.

I think the most relevant point above is that sponsors, and most importantly pub sponsors, are reducing massively.

Just to add another thought to the overall argument Premier Div problems i think another issue is "elite" player commitment at this level which has been touched upon slightly above. I know lads in teams from the prem to div 7 and have also played in most divisions at sone point. Many of the lads in the lower league sides, this is the only team they get involved in and for that reason are a lot more committed. They also aren't as highly strung about the teams overall league table/cup success and are a lot more likely to finish the season in the lower ends of the table. Compare this to the heady heights of the prem and a very large % of the guys are playing saturdays and sunday is a less attractive sideshow. Couple of losses and things quickly disintegrate into teams folding and premier leagues made up of 7 clubs which is close to a Europa league group size!

oily wrote:

Agree with lots of this especially about grass routes football.
We have an instance of this at 4g pitches at saffron lane.
After a couple of yearstraining here we have been told our position to train has been terminated because the parent clubs g.n.g and st andrews have taken our slot.
Not once we have missed a payment and we pay the full price.
Heard the other clubs get this for a substantially reduced rate for thier
slots so how can this be cost effective to the leicester city council reducing
prices when they are always moaning about cuts they have to make.
Just once again sunday or any adult football doesnt really matter to respetive fa.s councils
or anyone else.

Only the chairman of this league can find out why, thats the person where these sort of questions have to come from, at the council meetings.

footballman wrote:

I think the most relevant point above is that sponsors, and most importantly pub sponsors, are reducing massively.

Stop sitting around waiting for the fairy godmother to pop her little head up, you'll only get sponsorship if you show good commitment, you have to keep at it and put the graft in to be noticed by a sponsor, they're not going to invest in a bunch of time wasters, who keep moving around when ever it suits them, sponsors wont waste their time and money on lazy people, take an example of Jessica Ennis from a poor background, she's kept at it for years, the sponsors weren't there in the early days, now everybody wants a piece of her, even the makeup companies.

if you show you've got the balls, someone will take notice, you dont get the sponsorship first.

You put the hard work in first, and it could take years.

The alliance league have just got everards involved, and how many years has the alliance been going, everards didnt step in when it was first set up, and the same applies to anyone.

And footballman you are just repeating what everyone else has said, and i do believe it was dezza that started this thread, so i hope he's enjoying his feedback.

Good topic dezza.

Hellboy wrote:

Jessica Ennis from a poor background, she's kept at it for years, the sponsors weren't there in the early days, now everybody wants a piece of her

Your not wrong Helly!

Mmmm Jess Ennis....

Web_Manager wrote:

Hellboy wrote:

Jessica Ennis from a poor background, she's kept at it for years, the sponsors weren't there in the early days, now everybody wants a piece of her

Your not wrong Helly!

being rhetorical there, Mr M?  

As if Mr Whait!

IF, LOL

With relation to the finance point, I think Helly has hit the nail on the head.

The first couple of seasons  really do reflect business set up and at times it does need to be approached in this manner.

Get yourself sorted, fund it in house as much as you can and show commitment not only to your respective league but also to your team (and potential sponsors) and as time passes not only will you start to see the players respond with loyalty (after you have had to weed out the odd ones who not only don't pay but are a negative off the pitch), you will then start to attract better players who do take Sunday's seriously, you will find your balance sheet does in fact star to balance and you may also be fortunate to strike up a good deal with a local sponsor after a period of time.

It is no walk in the park as many of you guys who also run teams know, but if you can show that the admin and structure is sound off the pitch, it will be reflected on the pitch and in the bank eventually, not overnight, but it will come. It is all in the planning.

Of course there are players that are always late paying etc but it is vitally important that these are managed correctly and left in no doubt that it won't be tolerated over a certain level.

Set out what your lads get and what you expect them to do and all will come true, if you lose players over time due to non-payment, bad attitude etc, then do you really want them anyway?

As for the Prem, we see that over at LSL too. This structural problem needs looking at across the board and someone mentioned it above, maybe a merger could be the solution? I doubt it, as it will only drive some of the players who's integrity is less than 100% to do what they do know, move to lower leagues and hunt them there pots.

I would think that all leagues need to listen to what a teams overall drive and ambition is first and foremost such as ours is to progress as high as we can in a natural timescale, adding strength as we progress up the leagues. If we got whacked into the prem after 1 good season in Div 3, would we be here next season? I doubt it...

...if we won the next Division up by a street then we would expect the question to be asked regarding a double promotion.

I don't have the answers but maybe from my point of view, a consistent ladder of progression needs to be shown (promotion, relegation etc) then teams can plan for the following season with black and white caveats (such as 100% winning records, point margins, players former teams for the previous 3 seasons etc) then maybe, as us people that run clubs could put a structure in place ro react accordingly as our season progresses...

So enderby town have now folded!! Leaves a 7 team prem meaning 12 league games. Now I know it's not the leagues fault but I'm left question value for our money for our affiliation if we are paying the same as teams that are playing 20 games a season for the same fee.

Something needs to be done for prem teams to get more games this season, I have 4 suggestions and probably none are viable:

1. Merge prem & div 1 now whilst it's early in the season
2. Group games in the Arthur Moore again
3. Prem teams will have to start in 1 round of billy Walton
4.prem teams will have to play each other 3 or 4 times, must say though I'm really not a fan of that!!

Like I say I know it's bit the leagues fault however I'm left in the position of running a club facing half a season , losing players because they want a game every week And not every other week.

Have you got any players in your squad dezza, that have come from other folded teams?

Nope none from this season!!! Last season we signed Ryan Rowley from car breakers but that was about 2months before they folded. We could have signed a lot of players for this season and have still got people from recently folded teams asking to sign for us but we have said no

Have a chat with Morley, Dezza. Can't go into detail on here just yet but will put your mind at rest

where did you hear Enderby have folded Dezza? I? haven't seen that anywhere yet, although not surprised given the last few weeks!

guess we will have to rethink our points target for the season then, we were aiming for 6 but given the sides left in the prem that could prove very difficult lol

Fishandchips wrote:

where did you hear Enderby have folded Dezza? I? haven't seen that anywhere yet, although not surprised given the last few weeks!

guess we will have to rethink our points target for the season then, we were aiming for 6 but given the sides left in the prem that could prove very difficult lol

Twitter Mr Stevens

oh should of guessed really but busy working Ross so not had chance to check the social networks :)plus some ageist bullying last night has made me scared to log in

Dezza, cant see why option 1 cant be set up asap. Yes it would be 15 teams but the fixtures already played in prem and div 1 would stand and new fixtures start from this or next Sunday. EGM maybe by the committee? Probably wont happen but i think it will stop players jumping ship at prem clubs due to a short season and players getting frustrated with not playing every week.