Division 6, Good or Bad Idea?

No silly remarks please, just an adult debate on what you lot think about the Leagues proposal of the new Division 6 idea for next season... Is this a good thing or a bad thing, and explain your reasons why...

Personally I think it is a bad thing, although it is great that the league remains as popular as ever, there are several divisions with less teams in than they started and so it should be more important to ensure all divisions keep a suitable amount of teams from the start to the end of the season.

I agree with the above......

Carry on the sentiments really, it also throws up issues regarding the cup competitions, meaning more rounds (for some cups) and as we have seen this year, another poor winter and the season is in all sorts of problems with teams playing sun,wed,fri,sun for two weeks straight in an attempt to get the season finished before the crickters as the councils provide James with no lee way on extending the season. I understand the Alliance wants to continue to be best League around, and from what I know they easily are, without an additional division. The league has seen teams folding from christmas right through to today (exeter arms ressies)- therefore these new teams need to fill gaps left by other teams. I hope that the Alliance's reputation will be able to attract the big teams from LSL etc and continue to improve the competitve nature of the Prem, Div 1 and 2, as this season has already shown Division 3, 4 and and 5 are already competitive and well/over subscribed.

think its a silly idea we already have 6 divisions as it is now prem div1 and so on just move better teams from div1 to prem and so on down leagues make divisions bigger start season earlier aswell, trinderbox need to be div2 or 3 next year

Paulo_MTFC wrote:

Carry on the sentiments really, it also throws up issues regarding the cup competitions, meaning more rounds (for some cups) and as we have seen this year, another poor winter and the season is in all sorts of problems with teams playing sun,wed,fri,sun for two weeks straight in an attempt to get the season finished before the crickters as the councils provide James with no lee way on extending the season. I understand the Alliance wants to continue to be best League around, and from what I know they easily are, without an additional division. The league has seen teams folding from christmas right through to today (exeter arms ressies)- therefore these new teams need to fill gaps left by other teams. I hope that the Alliance's reputation will be able to attract the big teams from LSL etc and continue to improve the competitve nature of the Prem, Div 1 and 2, as this season has already shown Division 3, 4 and and 5 are already competitive and well/over subscribed.

Don't want other leagues closing down thanks, we need as many as possible, no one wants just one league.

If that league closed down it would be capput for all.

I think you need to look at the bigger picture, currently there are 6 divisions comprising of 75 teams.

4 of these divisions (2-5) have over the ideal 12 teams in them, I think im right in saying (???) these have been the problem divisions for backlogged fixtures.

Presuming the Prem will only ever be a max of 10 teams, adding just 1 more new team to the current 75 will make it 11 teams in each of the other divisions, or better still if the league can attract them 8 new teams to make 12 teams in each division.

Of course, I understand there will be clubs folding etc and the possibility of teams playing less games, but it cant always be both ways.

1 wrote:

Paulo_MTFC wrote:

Carry on the sentiments really, it also throws up issues regarding the cup competitions, meaning more rounds (for some cups) and as we have seen this year, another poor winter and the season is in all sorts of problems with teams playing sun,wed,fri,sun for two weeks straight in an attempt to get the season finished before the crickters as the councils provide James with no lee way on extending the season. I understand the Alliance wants to continue to be best League around, and from what I know they easily are, without an additional division. The league has seen teams folding from christmas right through to today (exeter arms ressies)- therefore these new teams need to fill gaps left by other teams. I hope that the Alliance's reputation will be able to attract the big teams from LSL etc and continue to improve the competitve nature of the Prem, Div 1 and 2, as this season has already shown Division 3, 4 and and 5 are already competitive and well/over subscribed.

Don't want other leagues closing down thanks, we need as many as possible, no one wants just one league.

If that league closed down it would be capput for all.

not suggesting the other leagues closing down thanks

I am saying hopefully the teams coming forward will be prem or div 1 standard as the 'lower' leagues are well subscribed already, the LSL is an example of where these teams may come from

My personal thoughts are that adding another division would be a bad mistake, not just for the league but for competitive leagues too. Taking teams from other leagues will reduce 'county' competition in the county cups, which all the teams pay subscriptions for. Competition is good for the Alliance!

How is this extra division going to work for the Alliance competitions? If the Stokes Cup is increased to a 3 division format, how is this fair for the teams in the lower leagues?

I do think each league should have 12 per league, especially if this makes life easier for James who would normally work with a 12- team league plan like he suggested in another post. Bye bye to mid-week games if this becomes the case!

Dont fix what isn't broke

I would like to see a League officials point of view, listing all the Pros and Cons of going ahead with this idea, see if it really is feasibly.

Tomassi wrote:

My personal thoughts are that adding another division would be a bad mistake, not just for the league but for competitive leagues too. Taking teams from other leagues will reduce 'county' competition in the county cups, which all the teams pay subscriptions for. Competition is good for the Alliance!

How is this extra division going to work for the Alliance competitions? If the Stokes Cup is increased to a 3 division format, how is this fair for the teams in the lower leagues?

I do think each league should have 12 per league, especially if this makes life easier for James who would normally work with a 12- team league plan like he suggested in another post. Bye bye to mid-week games if this becomes the case!

Dont fix what isn't broke

I would like to see a League officials point of view, listing all the Pros and Cons of going ahead with this idea, see if it really is feasibly.

Very well put. Otherwise we'll all end up like the big supermarkets taking over our lives. PS i'm very happy with the LSL league, i wouldn't want to leave by someone elses doing.

if the league limit the amount of clubs entering the league, and keep it roughly the same around 70 something,,then if we do get to the position we are in at the moment with the weather then we will not be playing so many midweek games as each division will e playing less games,,,,if they decide extra divison and extra ten teams then we will still be roughly the same position,,,biggest moan on here has always been midweek fixtures my suggestion is extra league and reduce teams in each league,,,,,,if we do have 6 divisions and extra teams we are in a better position referee wise to cover games,,,,,this was talked about a few years ago and I was ref sec and was covering 83% of games which was up a bit more at end of season,,,,,now we have nearly every game covered every sunday, and the ref sec said the league is in a good position regarding refs,,,,

cup comps would need sorting maybe limit billy walton to prem and one
arthur moore to 2 and 3
stokes to 4 and 5
and have the ewf as the div 6 cup or have 6 in the above and and the ewf as a plate comp for all teams knocked out in first round

i think the only thing with new teams and a new division will be the scenario of having teams like trinderbox in the wrong division winning every week by 5 or more goals (start of the season anyway!!) as i can see this season and seasons past, i can also see the problem of having too many teams in a division for the fixture backlog and playing wed fri and sun. A tricky 1 to decide on i reckon keep the 6 div's we have and shift teams around a bit. Either that or have a waiting list for teams wanting to join the league?? as stated in previous posts there are always teams folding.

Have to agree with most of the posts.

With the teams that are joining, surely Highcross and Royal Oak would go straight into the Prem.

SWAPO are said to be the old LSL side, so there not a bad side.

Chartwell Arms rumoured to have a few Polska lads, so again thats Prem/Div 1.

I would bulk up the prem to 14 teams, keep it to Prem-Div 5, unless theres a massive influx of teams over the Summer, especially with the LSL problems with there committe etc.

dee_aitcho wrote:

Have to agree with most of the posts.

With the teams that are joining, surely Highcross and Royal Oak would go straight into the Prem.
SWAPO are said to be the old LSL side, so there not a bad side.

Chartwell Arms rumoured to have a few Polska lads, so again thats Prem/Div 1.

I would bulk up the prem to 14 teams, keep it to Prem-Div 5, unless theres a massive influx of teams over the Summer, especially with the LSL problems with there committe etc.

It'd be no good putting Royal Oak in the Prem, they would struggle in our division 3 in my opinion. If you put them in the Prem; like many LSL sides, they would fold by xmas (GT excluded).

Unlike most, i would be in favour of a Division 6. Put a maximum of 10-12 teams in each division and you'd only need another 5-6 new teams.

Let the Prem sides battle it out for the Arthur Moore Cup in a Champions league-like format and then either split the EWF between division 1-3 and the Stokes between Divisions 4-6 or just add another cup competition and work it between two division like the present format.

Tomassi wrote:

I would like to see a League officials point of view, listing all the Pros and Cons of going ahead with this idea, see if it really is feasibly.

This a good and worthwhile debate. When it has run its course we will explain the League's position as it stands, but, of course, the number and quality of applicnts and the number of resignations is key and this will not be known for a while.

All contributions are very welcome - this is one of the main benefits of the Forum.

From a previous post about additional divisions and cups. Note my Cup suggestion-

Paulo MTFC: your proposal for a larger league would be a better than having an addition league which would ultimately disrtue the cup competitions we currently have running!
As for the Cups, because the higher divisions play far less games in the Billy Walton due to the structure, they can have a cup for Prem, Divs 1 & 2, Then Divs 3 & 4, and then Divs 5 & 6. An extra round for the Cup with three divisions, but I've explained how this can be absorbed due to the Billy Walton.

Doc Brown wrote:

dee_aitcho wrote:

Have to agree with most of the posts.

With the teams that are joining, surely Highcross and Royal Oak would go straight into the Prem.
SWAPO are said to be the old LSL side, so there not a bad side.

Chartwell Arms rumoured to have a few Polska lads, so again thats Prem/Div 1.

I would bulk up the prem to 14 teams, keep it to Prem-Div 5, unless theres a massive influx of teams over the Summer, especially with the LSL problems with there committe etc.

It'd be no good putting Royal Oak in the Prem, they would struggle in our division 3 in my opinion. If you put them in the Prem; like many LSL sides, they would fold by xmas (GT excluded).

Unlike most, i would be in favour of a Division 6. Put a maximum of 10-12 teams in each division and you'd only need another 5-6 new teams.

Let the Prem sides battle it out for the Arthur Moore Cup in a Champions league-like format and then either split the EWF between division 1-3 and the Stokes between Divisions 4-6 or just add another cup competition and work it between two division like the present format.

When you put it like that, I agree that there should be another league!!!

Thank god I'm not making this decision!!!

dee_aitcho wrote:

Have to agree with most of the posts.

With the teams that are joining, surely Highcross and Royal Oak would go straight into the Prem.

SWAPO are said to be the old LSL side, so there not a bad side.

Chartwell Arms rumoured to have a few Polska lads, so again thats Prem/Div 1.

I would bulk up the prem to 14 teams, keep it to Prem-Div 5, unless theres a massive influx of teams over the Summer, especially with the LSL problems with there committe etc.

Polska lads aren't good enough for Prem or Div 1 but know nothing about Chartwell Arms.

Put more teams in the Prem to make it more competitive and start season earlier

This posting is from John Kendall, the Secretary of LK Old Boys - who had problems logging in to the forum, to post under his own user name.

I think it would be a bad idea,because all it will do is encourage the incoming clubs to poach players from existing clubs,as what happened to us last year.We asked all of our players,after our last game,who wanted to play next season or otherwise.All but one said that they wanted to carry on but low and behold,days later they had formed a new team in the Alliance League plus they had poached other players from a team in the Sunday League.I know you cannot stop this happening but the big danger is,you get one new team and one fold.This happened to me in the Sunday League.After the last game I found out that my two managers had formed two new teams,not a word to me from either the players,managers or the Sunday League.Yes they gained two new teams and lost two teams.That is why I stayed as Secretary to the faithfull dozen and we are still going.

Polska legend II wrote:

Put more teams in the Prem to make it more competitive and start season earlier

excatly wot im saying why dont u make div 1 and prem ONE division except for lower teams in div1 now, then there will more off a battle for lower teams and then most teams will love to play likes off scrappy and advance and prem sports

i don't think they'd love to play them personally, most teams would run a mile (or fold) when on the end of a few of their spankings. But what it would do is give the 'also rans' a chance to win plenty of games against other sides therefore making their seasons more enjoyable and competitive

Assistant Secretary wrote:

Tomassi wrote:

I would like to see a League officials point of view, listing all the Pros and Cons of going ahead with this idea, see if it really is feasibly.

This a good and worthwhile debate. When it has run its course we will explain the League's position as it stands, but, of course, the number and quality of applicnts and the number of resignations is key and this will not be known for a while.

All contributions are very welcome - this is one of the main benefits of the Forum.

Why cant you tell us the pros and cons now? I think we have a right to know?

Tomassi wrote:

Why cant you tell us the pros and cons now? I think we have a right to know?

Probably because the league hasn't made up their minds what the 'official' view is. I can't blame Dennis for not wanting to contradict what the league has to say.

Here we go then. The League has simply decided that we would be prepared to add a further division if there were sufficient applicants of the right quality to bring the total number up to 84 having taken into account the resignations.

This would be based on 7 divisions of 12 although a slight variation across the divisions would not be ruled out. At the start of this season we had 80 teams and so this would only be an increase of 4 teams.

Advantages:
1. We are providing more football, which is what we are here for.
2. We would avoid having to turn teams away who want to join us which does happen from time to time.
3. We would NOT be reducing our minimum standard for the sake of being an even bigger league.
4. Smaller divisions reduces the risk of a fixture backlog at the end of the season.
5. Divisions of 12 would make midweek games at the start of the season unnecessary.
6. It is possible that the teams in each division would be better matched and so the divisions would be more competitive. However, it is not easy to predict the strength of a team when the constitution is finalised at the end of May.

Disadvantages
1. More work for volunteer League officers but we think it would be manageable.
2. Surprising increase in costs, even taking into account the additional subs, etc.
3. New structure would be required for Alliance cup competitions - several ideas have been considered but we are a long way from making any decisions.
4. More refs required but the excellent progress in this area during the last season is very encouraging.

The above is my assessment of the way the League is thinking but our views may change or develop further.

many teams apply to join (or fold) in the summer don't they so there'd be no way of knowing right now?

Polska legend II wrote:

many teams apply to join (or fold) in the summer don't they so there'd be no way of knowing right now?

The constitution circulated at the A G M is provisional but usually holds good. Any teams applying late can only be accepted if there is a suitable vacancy. Resignations after the AGM are a real pain for the remaining clubs and the League and that is why the fine is so heavy.

Assistant Secretary wrote:

Here we go then. The League has simply decided that we would be prepared to add a further division if there were sufficient applicants of the right quality to bring the total number up to 84 having taken into account the resignations.

This would be based on 7 divisions of 12 although a slight variation across the divisions would not be ruled out. At the start of this season we had 80 teams and so this would only be an increase of 4 teams.

Advantages:
1. We are providing more football, which is what we are here for.
2. We would avoid having to turn teams away who want to join us which does happen from time to time.
3. We would NOT be reducing our minimum standard for the sake of being an even bigger league.
4. Smaller divisions reduces the risk of a fixture backlog at the end of the season.
5. Divisions of 12 would make midweek games at the start of the season unnecessary.
6. It is possible that the teams in each division would be better matched and so the divisions would be more competitive. However, it is not easy to predict the strength of a team when the constitution is finalised at the end of May.

Disadvantages
1. More work for volunteer League officers but we think it would be manageable.
2. Surprising increase in costs, even taking into account the additional subs, etc.
3. New structure would be required for Alliance cup competitions - several ideas have been considered but we are a long way from making any decisions.
4. More refs required but the excellent progress in this area during the last season is very encouraging.

The above is my assessment of the way the League is thinking but our views may change or develop further.

OK so what you are saying is, it is going to cost the league more to have an extra division, we would require even more referees and its going to be more work for the league officials who help on a voluntary basis? With this costing the league more, will this mean the costs then get taxed onto the clubs?

What are the proposed new cup formats and how will they work?

Im not sure if a couple of the advantages points are valid, point 3 has always been the leagues priority so why is it an advantage now? Point 6 has always been a problem and will not be solved by having 1 or 2 teams less per division. I do agree that smaller divisions will mean less mid week games, it is called Sunday league for a reason, but can the prem not be pumped upto 12 teams and have 12 teams in the current league format we have anyway? Of course this isn't feasible if we have more than 72 teams.

Who will benefit more, the clubs or the league? And will this idea be proposed at the AGM or is the decision being made solely by the League committee?

I just want to see where the League is going with this idea, hence all the questions as it would be a radical change, but I know the League will be prepared for such changes.

Tomassi wrote:

I do agree that smaller divisions will mean less mid week games, it is called Sunday league for a reason, but can the prem not be pumped upto 12 teams and have 12 teams in the current league format we have anyway? Of course this isn't feasible if we have more than 72 teams.

The Prem started with 12 teams this season.

Let's hope it remains at 9!

The more divs the merrier.

Except for the fixtures sec!