"Ringers"

I intend this to be a serious discussion so please do not ruin it with pointless finger-pointing or bickering.

What are the options with regards to

a) preventing the opposition from playing ringers when you strongly expect it
b) proving the offence during or after it has happened


In a game earlier in the season, three players showed up for our opposition after kick off. The fact that they all had half a different kit on lead us to believe their own team's game was called off. All three came on (god knows how their own subs fealt) and one of them scored twice.

Bearing in mind two of the players actually tried out for our [first] team in pre-season, we asked the referee what names he was given. They were obviously fake, the players couldn't even spell them!

That is just an example, I don't really want a discussion about that particular occasion.

Any (realistic) ideas? How is it normally proved?

I'd be interested in hearing the league's opinion especially.

We could have played with ringers on Sunday, played with ten men instead, got beat, probably get fined, It all comes down to the overall attitude, unless teams are forced to submit a teamsheet prior to a game, you won't stop it and most sides, at some point, change their teams last minute so that wouldn't work. tough one. The problem you have is people get away with it. Even when so-called team mates are blatently overheard calling eachother 'Player', refs turn a blid eye, I don't blame them, not their problem, impossible to prove on the spot and could get ugly. The leagues ethic is to 'get the game played at all costs' They are ok with any tom dick or harry reffing if needed, if the official doesn't have to be legit, then there is no way of making sure all players are. Both questions you ask are good ones, I just don't know the answer mate

Think the days of 'any Tom Dick or Harry' reffing are long gone thanks to the sterling work Tommy does behind the scenes in getting nearly 100% of games covered

As for the general question, of course no one wants ringers playing - including the league. However, it does go on in my opinion far more than people would like to think but I don't think its widespread - in other words, teams may field the odd one but I don't think there are teams choc full of them

Playing "ringers" has always been and always will be a problem, unfortunately. We are the only Leicester league to check 100%all Team Sheets and we pass to County details of suspended players and del with unregistered players ourselves. However, we all know that the names on the team sheet are not always the names of players who actually played.

The punishment is severe and we hope this acts as a deterrent.

We would certainly take very seriously any protest lodged correctly but we will not run with any frivolous or mischievous allegation. If a club makes an allegation, the club must be prepared to substantiate the claim if it is denied. No-one else is in a position to do this. This is where the problem lies.

It is not a matter for the referee - he is there to referee the game and nothing more.

We do trust all clubs to act properly because the league is run for the benefit of the clubs, but regretfully this trust is sometimes misplaced.

It is all very well saying that things could become "ugly", but it is often better to ask the question of the opposing club official in a sensible and unprovocative manner - not easy in practice.

We do, unlike most Leagues, allow players to register at kick off which reduces the need to play ringers. Also bear in mind that a player can legitimately register for two clubs in different League. Maybe others have more postponemnts and the players 'visit' their other club???

I agree this is a situation which occurs frequently, but its seems to me as if the league are willing to turn a blind eye to it.
I recently requested a league official to come down to a game which I believed the opposition were fielding "ringers" only to be told that we needed Photographic evidence to cross reference the players with the team photo!
Now im no David Bailey and my phones camera is crap, so thats never gonna happen besides as a defence the opposition would say they weren't on the photo in the first place!
Maybe a solution to the problem, especially at the end of the season when there's a backlog of games is to have an all year round signing on policy instead of not allowing players to sign after the end of Feb/March (Can't remember which it is). Or have the team official keep the signing on slips available at each game, so they can show them on request.
This obviously wont stop the problem but will surely help.

I think there will always be an issue with ringers, can you prove it?

I don't think so.

Is there a possibility for extending the signing on period for the whole season? Is there a reason the league don't do this currently?

To take a photo on a camera, I just don't think thats enough evidence, and ultimatley, there will always be ringers.

The only way of stopping this would be, to have to sign players on a day or two before a game, and have to put a photo on the signing on form, like in youth leagues, therefore, a manager can ask to see the oppositions signing on forms, and check the photo to the player.

The deadline for player registrations and transfers is to prevent clubs signing players for key League and Cup games at the end of the season. This to be fair to the regular members of the team.

That is a good point, so could you do a deadline for cup, then deadline for the league.

Or No deadline for the league

ID cards

Polska legend II wrote:

ID cards

don't start them off!

Could you limit the amount of players your allowed to sign on; perhaps 2 players before a game rather than 6. Same rules for the county cup that you have to play 4 games to qualify for the later rounds.

Corby wrote:

Could you limit the amount of players your allowed to sign on; perhaps 2 players before a game rather than 6. Same rules for the county cup that you have to play 4 games to qualify for the later rounds.

County followed our lead on games played for semis and finals (4 and 6)

Maybe 6 is too many but people take advantage of this at the start of the season. If clubs were allowed to sign 2 players per game until the end of the season, you could have a new squad in no time at all.

Before the end of Feb deadline was introduced, there were all sorts of complaints from players who found they had lost their place to newcomers in key games.

Editted

This is not the place to make serious allegations - club secretaries know the procedure

Got to bring photo cards in, thats the only logical way of proving it. It wouldn't be much hassle really.

It seems everyones at it just ask willywonker, something to do with western

Bruce Campbell wrote:

It seems everyones at it just ask willywonker, something to do with western

Willyw@nker will tell you all our players are ringers to get a reaction somewhere lol

no ringers in our team...

willy w@nker you are just on here to cause trouble its about time you grew up

I can understand why vyvyan's comment was edited. But he made a valid point. Im good mates with the beesknees secretary, and there was nothing he could have done to prove it so whats the point in "going through correct channels".

I wont make allegations, il state facts, i went to watch West end V beesknees on the 21st April, then went to watch Couriers v Scrappy on the 23rd. And the same player played for both West End and Advance. So either west end played a ringer or Advance did in the billy walton cup final!! Do you suggest the secretary take a camera with him in future and ask the lad for a mugshot!! dont think that will work somehow.

There wasnt a ref for the west end beesknees game which obvioulsy doesnt help. It was a big game that could have decided a relegation place, so i can understand why the beesknees lads arent happy about it.

Im not trying to get people in trouble just stating facts on a massive issue that could effect whether clubs get promoted and relegated. Something definatly needs to be done

johnmeode wrote:

I can understand why vyvyan's comment was edited. But he made a valid point. Im good mates with the beesknees secretary, and there was nothing he could have done to prove it so whats the point in "going through correct channels".

I wont make allegations, il state facts, i went to watch West end V beesknees on the 21st April, then went to watch Couriers v Scrappy on the 23rd. And the same player played for both West End and Advance. So either west end played a ringer or Advance did in the billy walton cup final!! Do you suggest the secretary take a camera with him in future and ask the lad for a mugshot!! dont think that will work somehow.

There wasnt a ref for the west end beesknees game which obvioulsy doesnt help. It was a big game that could have decided a relegation place, so i can understand why the beesknees lads arent happy about it.

Im not trying to get people in trouble just stating facts on a massive issue that could effect whether clubs get promoted and relegated. Something definatly needs to be done

The best thing iv'e read for ages. Totally agree.....



Its happening all the time, doesnt' matter what division your in or what league for that matter, its probably a good job they didn't win that game against Scrappy then.

RM05 wrote:

Bruce Campbell wrote:

It seems everyones at it just ask willywonker, something to do with western

Willyw@nker will tell you all our players are ringers to get a reaction somewhere lol

no ringers in our team...

You make me laugh you know who you played

one more season wrote:

willy w@nker you are just on here to cause trouble its about time you grew up

You must be the old tw*t at the back and if so you know who you played

Can players sign for 2 teams in different leagues, such as 1 in the LSL and 1 in the Alliance

Harrow_Veteran wrote:

Can players sign for 2 teams in different leagues, such as 1 in the LSL and 1 in the Alliance

Yes you can but not a player that plays from one alliance team yet plays for another alliance team lets say because his team has no game that week . like western did in the county cup

One thing I would say is that teams should provide goalscorers on the day of every game. If they dont then they should be docked points. How many time do you see a winning side never provide goalscorers. This brings into question the integrity of the result.

Surely teams have nothing to hide by provide goalscorers names??

ringers have always been played and always will! if alot of you were honest im sure you have played as a ringer

this time of the season "ringers" have always surfaced, midweek games a player will always help his mates out.all sorts of stuff goes on. beauy rangers 30 odd beating of beaumont saints in the lsl .....saints couldnt field a side so beauy made up the numbers for em and this is by no means a first.

willywonka wrote:

Harrow_Veteran wrote:

Can players sign for 2 teams in different leagues, such as 1 in the LSL and 1 in the Alliance

Yes you can but not a player that plays from one alliance team yet plays for another alliance team lets say because his team has no game that week . like western did in the county cup

boring!

Unless the entire of a squad is present on a team photograph, I don't really understand how taking a picture of an alleged "ringer" could help?
I must admit I think the only way to get around this is to have a photograph on the signing on cards and that these cards be present for any game for a team official from the opposition to request to view if they believe a ringer is being played....
Could that be done, surely it wouldn't be that difficult to do and at no extra cost to the league?

rather play a ringer than not play the game at all, sometimes its either no game or play ringers to get a side out

if the league wants to stamp out ringers, then it should also not fine and dock points from teams that dont fulfill a fixture

That can't happen at the end of the day we play in a Sunday league and our commitment is to field a side for each fixture. I understand the reasoning behind fines and docking points as I played once in a league that had no such punishment and at times you could go 4/5 weeks without a game!
I cant see why anyone could need to play ringers when you can sign someone on before the game. The point is not that sometimes we need to grab players last minute (I've had to sign 3 players before kickoff this season to field a full side) but noone should be drafting in higher division players to "help out" for a week as it completely changes the game.

The North Leicester League (Sat) have ID sheet. each player has there photo on it with there signiture. These have to be produced each game if an official or oppostion team requests. This has stopped a lot of the problem of playing ringers this season. The Charnwood league check all team sheets and have a small team that go around visiting games to check players. Having said this there are still ringers getting away with it.

The main problem is players that are Sine Die'd or suspended signing on with differnet names. I know of an on going case where a player is susspended under three different names but is still playing under yet another name. Even County FA did'nt seem to know how to deal with this case. Might be why they've still not got to the bottom of it after 5 months.

people are looking at ringers here as if they only play to improve a teams chances of winning, there are many occasions when bad players get a game just to make up numbers, ive seen many instances of it, you even see the opposition giving players to the team short of players, it helps to make a fair game sometimes,

i personally think the league should give all teams at least 1 (possibly 2 maybe 1 each side of xmas) option of postponing the game on the day of the game at a time say of no later than 9-30am, anything could happen at any time to mean that you cant posssibly put a legal side out

saff lounge wrote:

people are looking at ringers here as if they only play to improve a teams chances of winning, there are many occasions when bad players get a game just to make up numbers, ive seen many instances of it, you even see the opposition giving players to the team short of players, it helps to make a fair game sometimes,

i personally think the league should give all teams at least 1 (possibly 2 maybe 1 each side of xmas) option of postponing the game on the day of the game at a time say of no later than 9-30am, anything could happen at any time to mean that you cant posssibly put a legal side out

When you can sign players on though on the morning of the game though surely this would be enough help to avoid the need for ringers? The problem with allowing team to postpone games on that morning there is no chance then for another fixture to be arranged and the backlog at the end of the season gets worse?

You should'nt enter a competative league structure if you think you'll need one or two weeks off over Christmas due to players not being available. Find some that are.