Alliance Prem 2014/15

Unfortunately same old arguments every year. New teams coming in which no one but themselves really no the standards. The top leagues is very difficult to work out,that's why as I've said before,
Have a season with NO new team
Teams promoted/relegated on merit
Have less divisions
Let the other leagues bolster there divisions and make the county cups worth entering again

the number of the divisions isnt the problem because we know we can cope with that number. why penalise a new (say, Div 4) team if they want to come and join us?

In my opinion we already have enough teams of similar standard, then a team who come 5th or 6th get promoted to accommodate a team we no nothing about. Seems wrong to me

bretty1 wrote:

In my opinion we already have enough teams of similar standard, then a team who come 5th or 6th get promoted to accommodate a team we no nothing about. Seems wrong to me

I agree that long standing teams can suffer due to the new clubs entering their divisions (or the ones below to stop them getting relegated). But what do we do with the teams that we know nothing about? Tell them to go elsewhere?

Sparta3 wrote:

bretty1 wrote:

In my opinion we already have enough teams of similar standard, then a team who come 5th or 6th get promoted to accommodate a team we no nothing about. Seems wrong to me

I agree that long standing teams can suffer due to the new clubs entering their divisions (or the ones below to stop them getting relegated). But what do we do with the teams that we know nothing about? Tell them to go elsewhere?

Surely if the league knows nothing about the new teams they should get a couple of 'scouts' out to pre season friendlies, and then judge them on those few games, yes they may play amazing or awful in those games but it would help more than guessing?

monsellwmc wrote:

It wouldn't be a triple promotion as you can see the majority of division 1 is a mix of the top teams from divisions 2, 3 and 4. Most of division 1 would form a bigger premier division. What team are you with Bucko?

Iam from thurmo res mate, i agree that u want the prem and div 1 as strong as possible but to put a team up 3 divisions is abit much, but i think its an impossible job for the league to get it spot on

Plus u will never be able to stop the pothunters

Hairy Hebrew! wrote:

You cant base a cup final over a year ago on a draft constitution for next season. A lot has changed over the course of the last 14 months for both sides. You haven't seen us play in the last 14 months and vice versa.
All I can go on is, based on our division last season Enness + Huncote + Thurmaston and Ourselves should be in the same division. People moan about a 2 League jump, but a 3 League jump in a division we just shaded in the end would be harsh. I haven't seen a 3 League promotion for any team in my time in the Alliance League and wouldn't expect one now.

I agree mate we shud all be in the same division again as it was so closs

As I have said before the answer regarding new teams is easy - put them all in the same division (Rookies League)

The league can then format all the other divisions based on known facts from the previous season(s) which is fairest for all concerned.

After 1 season in the 'Rookies League' the new teams can then be allocated their correct division because we will then know how good they are.

Simple

As i said this time last year for new sides only.
Get their 20 or so players signed on and they know who are going to sign by
now.
No new signings allowed to sign until october and then division them on the
basis of their signings because rumours on new sides are normally true or there abouts.

Blackie wrote:

As I have said before the answer regarding new teams is easy - put them all in the same division (Rookies League)

The league can then format all the other divisions based on known facts from the previous season(s) which is fairest for all concerned.

After 1 season in the 'Rookies League' the new teams can then be allocated their correct division because we will then know how good they are.

Simple

To carry this arguement on, and not saying that its a bad idea....what League and County Cup would you put them all in?

oily wrote:

As i said this time last year for new sides only.
Get their 20 or so players signed on and they know who are going to sign by
now.
No new signings allowed to sign until october and then division them on the
basis of their signings because rumours on new sides are normally true or there abouts.

Again not a bad idea, but we have established teams struggling to sign the required 12 players on by 1st July, this would be more difficult for new sides, I would imagine.

Also the Alliance League is casting its net even wider these days with clubs from as wide as Cossington for example where there is a good chance the players have played cross border then the League is again struggling to determine the level of players signed on

Again not suggesting this is a bad idea just carrying on a very productive argument and one the Committee agonises over every season

Paulo wrote:

Blackie wrote:

As I have said before the answer regarding new teams is easy - put them all in the same division (Rookies League)

The league can then format all the other divisions based on known facts from the previous season(s) which is fairest for all concerned.

After 1 season in the 'Rookies League' the new teams can then be allocated their correct division because we will then know how good they are.

Simple

To carry this arguement on, and not saying that its a bad idea....what League and County Cup would you put them all in?

They wouldn't be eligible for the League and County Cup in their 1st season with us.

They would however be able to take their chances in the Billy Walton

Think it would be very harsh, say on a team that has just got together as mates and their standard is quite poor. Pitting them against a team that is full of superstars is going to be demoralising and could you really see them coming back the season after, lets say if they actually don't get fed up with their 'Rookie' season.

agree entirely. have always disagreed with the 'new team in one division scenario'. there is too much panic on here over new teams, lets face it, the league get the constitution right 95% of the time

Blackie wrote:

Paulo wrote:

Blackie wrote:

As I have said before the answer regarding new teams is easy - put them all in the same division (Rookies League)

The league can then format all the other divisions based on known facts from the previous season(s) which is fairest for all concerned.

After 1 season in the 'Rookies League' the new teams can then be allocated their correct division because we will then know how good they are.

Simple

To carry this arguement on, and not saying that its a bad idea....what League and County Cup would you put them all in?

They wouldn't be eligible for the League and County Cup in their 1st season with us.

They would however be able to take their chances in the Billy Walton

County competitions are compulsory with your affiliation.

Everyone is full of reasons as to why things can't be done... Clearly a poor idea lads so lets forget it.

Lets just keep accepting all and sundry until The Alliance has finally become the biggest league in the world.

Playing in The Alliance League should be a privilege, not a right

You're not in the wrong Blackie. All ideas are welcome, it's just that this one is difficult to work with.

Perhaps a combination of yours and HH's idea would be to have different signing on rules for new clubs, with compulsory ranking games (friendlies) to ascertain a club's standard.

I like the new teams in one division idea Blackie I always have and to a point we have it.....Div 7

It you are moving over from the Hinckley or Charnwood League you are not a new team so you get some input and the league has some knoweldge of your standard and get put in a more suitable division

If you are a new side that is interviewed you are asked on your application form which division you would wish to join, you would be surprised but most do not select Div 7.....if they have experience/established players or are full of superstars there are many that dont want it easy

Don't get me wrong I know there are new teams of Div 1/2 standard that say 4/5 to 'pothunt' but completely new sides with no experience or desire to play up the leagues get put into the new division 7 or 6 if there isnt room

The biggest and most valid argument about the consititution is around making leagues competitve and giving everyone a chance of at least starting the season with the belief that they can win something, I am not sure everyone new to the Alliance League all together in a Rookie league gives that either - like the idea but not sure if solves the problem, doesn't it just move the problem to somewhere else.

On the note of no new teams, if we did this we would have a 6 team prem, 5 team div 1 and just 8 teams in div 4, I think most other divisions would have between 10-12.......woulfd teams in any of these three league be getting value for money over a season???

last two comments from Sparta and Pete Mourinho are spot on.

New teams should know the majority of players they will be signing on and I say as a rule should be signed on by the end of June, giving the league enough time to amend any changes to the constitution for the meeting in early august.

Pete Mourinhos idea of having the completely new teams in a league of their own could work. But the standard throughout the division could still be so mixed. Its seeing these teams against other well known established teams, to know where they should be placed, so a Cup competition would have to be a must. Can see it working but do we have 10+ completely new teams every season to make this division work?

We are yet again going round in circles. I have nothing against new teams joining(we have all done it), but we have teams fold year in year out, then the majority set up a new team and ask to be placed in divisions way below what they have played in. Quoting"they are just mates". They storm the league two years running or so and then do it all over again. The only possible way would be suspend players for 12 months from the alliance league that have been involved in clubs that fold. It's very harsh on the genuine people but I can't see any other way.

with respect to all the views on here we have one post suggesting we dont accept new teams and another saying we prevent players from playing!

there are not that many 'new' teams that rise from the ashes of old ones - they really are a tiny majority. Most of the new teams for the season just ended were exactly that - brand new with most playing in the Alliance for the first time. As I said earlier, very few teams are placed way below their standard. I just don't think it is an issue at all. The last big uproar was over Fairfield and they didn't even win their division!

There's always going to be teams better than others in leagues, that's football there's 1st place and last place, always got to be occupied, I don't see why there's this massive fuss about it. I know people enjoy playing football but if you are looking for more competitive football then Saturday Leagues are where you want to go, after all Sunday leagues are full of people who have been out the night before still smashed

I disagree with that comment. A lot of sunday league players can not play saturdays because of work or other issues. Some teams like ourselves only play sundays so therefore it is very competitive with lots of ambition as far as sunday football can go

monsellwmc wrote:

I disagree with that comment. A lot of sunday league players can not play saturdays because of work or other issues. Some teams like ourselves only play sundays so therefore it is very competitive with lots of ambition as far as sunday football can go

Agree with this 100%. Also the playing standard on Saturdays, nor the organisation, are anything to write home about unless you are at the very top.

Just the constitution.
Most new teams know who their signing way before now otherwise they wouldnt
be joining the league and majority of local players know which sides they are through rumours.
If a side is div 3 standard then their signed players will tell us this.
If a side wants to go in div 3 and have 8-9 senior players signed on prior to a fixed
date then the league should act upon it and amend the leagues accordingly.
Think it could be an easy fix and ban all new signings for the first month of the season
so gives the rest a chance and limit the signings to 2 a month.
Wont stop the pot hunters all together but at least most the leagues should be reasonably fair.

East Goscote Athletic expecting Division 2 Football Next Season

oily wrote:

Think it could be an easy fix and ban all new signings for the first month of the season
so gives the rest a chance and limit the signings to 2 a month.
Wont stop the pot hunters all together but at least most the leagues should be reasonably fair.

Transfers are banned - maybe they should be banned for a few weeks longer than now?
The league's policy is to encourage signings in order to increase participation in Alliance football. Another result of banning signings would be to encourage players to register for clubs in other leagues.

And go pot hunting year after year.

I agree with oily in principle get everyone signed by a set date then sort out the divisions then ban signings till an agreed transfer window allowing new signings to be added

But in practice we have all been there sign on 18 players, 3 get injured during pre-season, 2 go on holiday the last week of August because they let their misses book it without checking when the season starts and 3 work on a Wednesday so can't make the first game which is midweek meaning you only have 10 players so sign 2 on the day - ban signing players and as a club you would get a fine for not having 11, a fine for no linesman and probably lose the first match - not the way to start the season

Seems like an extreme example I know and well run clubs like yours Oily would make sure they signed enough to cope with new rules, however, not every club would/could do this we would have unregistered players left, right and centre

Would love to see a way to make it work tho

But pete all new sides who are joining know who is signing otherwise they wouldnt be
joining the league. Happens too many times sides dropping out dropping a league lose a
few games pull out THEN START AGAIN LOWER DOWN.
It will happen this year again and i also think promoting sides above thier standard will lead
to more pull outs which may include ourselfs as we cant compete that high with the amount of
ageing players we have and the small squad we have.
Lets hope not but think it will happen not with just us but with a few others as well.

I think there is something in it. May not be perfect, but one of the best suggestions I've seen. Clubs know generally who they are signing, would they sign up and pay all the fees if they didn't have the commitment from 15-16 players?? Very risky if not. And I do think that's different to existing clubs. We could insist that new clubs have to submit a bigger squadlist than existing teams maybe.

From a league point of view, it helps to ensure that new teams are fully prepared and are less likely to fail to fulfill fixtures, and can help with judging their level.

Been saying it for 2-3years and yet sides come in every year with better players than the rest
of the sides in that league reach a certain level wrap up and start again.
By vetting signings the league will know the standard and act accordingly and if thier not happy about it tough.

I do like this idea.....its not perfect but I think it might have some legs

I will bring it to the attention of the committee at the next meeting, maybe something that can be evolved for next season. Will have a chat next time I see you Oily about more detail

I've not read this whole thread properly so excuse me if sum1 has already made this suggestion but why can't there be a cut off date of say start of July for all teams to hav all thier players signed on officially.

Then the committee can put the leagues together after seeing who teams hav signed on.

Then do a transfer window in jan for mabe a week or two

If all clubs agreed to this there can be no issues surely

Why is there a need to sign players on by filling in paper each season when the loyal players will sign season in and season out. Why not have the 'transfer windows' at some stage in the summer and winter and once a player is signed on they will stayed signed on until they transfer if they want to leave. (clubs can still set an annual fee for players to play as that will be done internally). Then the league will know what standard players teams have got and the window could be from the end of the season until July sometime which would allow the league to sort out the constitution.

Once the form has been done its been done until a player transfers basically. and any transferred / extra players would have to go through the registration procedure anyway to see the standard.

In terms of new teams - you can apply the same cut off date as long as the teams are made aware of this in the interview stages etc - then the league (as stated) will have the players for each team and can set the leagues accordingly

Not a bad idea but I can see a big list of players signed for 2 teams and when a team drops out and fines/bans are given out, a player that signed say 4 years ago but has not featured for the last 2 years would find themselves banned.
Also does that mean we would have to pay a transfer fee everytime we sign a new player during the summer?

I see the point your making and yes it would have its good points but a lot of bad points with it

Another bad point would be that other leagues would possibly not want to go with that idea making the idea harder to enforce with players coming from the LSL or Charnwood for example

The league would have a list of players signed for each club and then could cross-reference it to check when a new player is signed (there must be an easy way, software to do something like that).

Can see the issues with players who have not played for years and coming back but if the form is sent through then it should pick up they are signed for another club and prompt the team to make a transfer.

The only issues could be with the transfer fees, maybe over the summer there are not an fees but transfers are still made, and only transfers throughout the season are paid for?

So effectively very similar to what we have now apart from we're not filling in the same form every season.

Only issue I haven't got a solution for is across league transfers and players signing etc, it would have to be a county FA solution rather than inter-league.

The idea of signing and staying signed to a club out of season is not something that the league would have the ability to do.

This would only work, be possible or even be allowed, if it was controlled by the County FA, central registations. I believe that at some point in the next 5 years we may well have central registerations but for now we need to worry about what we can control within our own rules.

A great debate and good to hear new ideas........this one is just outside of the scope that the league has at this point in time